Walkman vs iPod?

[greg]

Being a bit of a late adopter I am yet to buy such a device. I was wondering whether any of you esteemed fellows has gone to any lengths to compare the Sony against the iPod or iPod nano / Creative Zen / iRiver, etc?

Benefits vs drawbacks, sound quality, usability, value for money, general impressions, build quality, etc. All would all be valued.

Cheers
Greg

[Tenson]

Well, I have been quite impressed with the Archos brand.

[Anex]

I prefer my iriver to the ipods I've had, its more listenable, doesn't crash like the mini pods I had did and built like a tank. The screen is frankly crap, especially compared to the ipod nano but it lets me choose songs and thats all I need (I have no idea why people would want to store photos on stuff like that). Transfers from windows media player can be dodgy, sometimes it cocks up the tracks in places which is annoying and never happened with itunes and ipod but I still prefer it.
Have no real experience with creative zen other than last night after too many gins, looks very cool but it took me bloody ages to cue up some tracks, I was ****ed but I found the scroll thing being combined with a touch sensitive button way to fiddly for my liking.

EDIT: Seems you can't be pished on here anymore

[Doctor Jeep]

I had an iPod and my flatmate brought home a Sony NWA1000 Walkman a couple of weeks ago. I had a listen and it frankly blew the iPod away with fantastic sound quality. The sound is nothing like an mp3 player, it is much more like a quality cd player with a lovely full sound. Much better build quality too! Anyway, I went out and bought one. My iPod has since been sold on Ebay. Nothing wrong with iPods, they look cool and they're easy to use....plus a fashion icon. The Sony is just better at music though and that's what it's all about for me. I echo the previous poster re storing photos on your mp3 player. Er, why would you want to do that? My mobile 'phone & camera are the place for photos. As for the video iPod, I never used that feature anyway. Ask yourself just how many videos you're going to download from iTunes and watch on a tiny screen? The Sony also has a removable battery, you don't have to 'ship' it to Apple for a top-dollar replacement. :eek: My mate sent his old iPod off to Apple for the battery replacing and it cost him $100. I don't know if the prices have come down since (this was a year ago) but I do know that his iPod was a bit aesthetically worse for wear when he got it back. There are no screws on the device, Apple have to literally prise it apart with a sharp instrument - there were marks where they had done this. Even the current iPods are built in exactly the same way. I think they're designed to be disposable, people are expected to upgrade to the latest model when their battery dies. That is out of order in my mind.

For the sound quality, build quality and good looks I don't think there is any better value out there than the Sony NWA1000 & 3000. This isn't slating iPods, I just think the Walkman is better. I'm sure the trillion iPod owners out there won't but it's all a matter of opinion.

[julian2002]

i've recently got back froma months holiday and during that i used a combination of archos gmini 500 and crative zen nano. the archos has a 30gb hdd which can store loads of tunes. it can also act as a usb host which means it can up/down load to other devices without hte need for a pc. i used it to store all my holiday snaps some movies for boring travel times and about 50 albums. then i used a cheap creative nano that can take aaa batteries to listen to music whilst on the beach.
off holiday i use my phone as my main music source whilst out and about. this is good especially in the car if i get a call as it pauses the music automatically it also means i only have one device on me. i'm waiting for the day when it all converges along with gps and a big hdd then i'll be happy.

[garyi]

I played with one of them sonys over Christmas and they were certainly well built. Heavy even

The guy in the shop was pleased with the one he bought but conceded that Sony Connect software was possibly the worse devil inspired POS ever put to 1s and 0s so for a person who is yet to get on board with the whole computer music thing that may be a consideration. He also said you could not read the thing in bright light. (thats assuming we are on about the same thing, the blue sony's with the organic looking display?)

As for sound quality well every one has a preference, but to my ears they all sound broadly similar. There was a thing on gadget show the other day between 3 products and the conclusion was iPod was still far and away the best if you did not mind being tied into iTunes.

As for the iPod battery thing, I changed my own with a battery from ebay for 8 quid, it came with two soft plastic spatulas you simply stuck between the metal and the plastic it took around 4 minutes to complete the operation and there was zero damage.

For me I would happily own the sony if it worked with iTunes and I would happily own an iPod video or the up and coming iPod, I like the idea of carrying personal photos and video. I would not have an iRiver as they feel like and work like junk.

[greg]

I was hoping for some rounded and intelligent comments based on experience rather than brand loyalty... and you didnt disappoint. :)

However this well rounded and balanced view doesnt help me decide what to buy :(

The iTunes factor is interesting. Several friends have commented that they could easily find they prefer the Sony, but dont want to stop using iTunes.

Similarly myself and others here have commented they would buy an iPod if it wasnt for iTunes.

Mmmm. I'm still unsure.

[Doctor Jeep]

If, as you say, you've never used iTunes before - what's the problem? It isn't like you'll miss x,y & z that you've got used to. I don't use the Sony Connect software anyway because it's rubbish. If you go to the Sony website, you can download "SonicStage" for free and use that instead - it's the program they used to ship with their older mp3 players and works a treat. I have absolutely no bother with it and I'm used to iTunes. True, the Apple software is easy peasy to use but once you've got the tunes on your player, that fades into memory. The most tedious part of buying an mp3 player is loading all your albums - after that it's a simple case of adding new cd purchases as and when. It's a pain loading 150 albums onto an iPod too you know, it isn't fun.;)

[hifikrazy]

First question you have to ask youself is how much am i going to use it? Heaviest users of these things are commuters. If this heavy usage category is you then you need a dedicated large storage player such as ipod/new walkman/zen etc. Personally i dont like ipods and i dont like itunes, but thats just me.

If you are just an occasional user then something like one of the Sony walkman phones (K750i,D750, W800i etc - there are others) would be pretty good, includes a decent camera (2mp) as well. I have one of these with a 512mb card, saves me lugging around a phone and a mp3 player and camera. The camera is good enough to take photos that are not just for messaging and i can easily get 10 albums on it. (disc2phone software that comes with it is passable, but i just use LAME to make mp3s and dump them directly to the card).

I came close to buying myself an ihp-140 from iriver a while back. Much prefer that to an ipod.

[3DSonics]

Hi,

Being a bit of a late adopter I am yet to buy such a device. I was wondering whether any of you esteemed fellows has gone to any lengths to compare the Sony against the iPod or iPod nano / Creative Zen / iRiver, etc?

Benefits vs drawbacks, sound quality, usability, value for money, general impressions, build quality, etc. All would all be valued.

I checked out most. I found that I get a perfectly decent sound quality from my PocketPC Phone, when it comes to listening on the move in the Bus or Tube and the 1GB SD Card storage is good enough.

Selecting the right headphones was the much bigger job, plus I find headphone listening to recordings made for speaker listening, so I now pre-process my "on the move" music through the headplug plugin for Winamp and a parametric EQ to cancel the headphone/earchannel resonance.

The big music library resides on both my Notebook PC and the Media Center PC and my Notebook has an SD card slot, so making up a new compilation is easy enough.

The only problem is battery life, with my spare battery I get up to maybe 10 Hours listening max....

Ciao T

[greg]

If, as you say, you've never used iTunes before - what's the problem? It isn't like you'll miss x,y & z that you've got used to. I don't use the Sony Connect software anyway because it's rubbish. If you go to the Sony website, you can download "SonicStage" for free and use that instead - it's the program they used to ship with their older mp3 players and works a treat. I have absolutely no bother with it and I'm used to iTunes. True, the Apple software is easy peasy to use but once you've got the tunes on your player, that fades into memory. The most tedious part of buying an mp3 player is loading all your albums - after that it's a simple case of adding new cd purchases as and when. It's a pain loading 150 albums onto an iPod too you know, it isn't fun.;)I think I didnt make myself clear. Until I saw a Walkman (last week) I was on the verge of buying an iPod Nano. However I dont fancy the idea of using iTunes, I didnt mean to imply I want to use it, in some ways the reason I hadnt yet bought an iPod was because I dont like the idea of being tied to Apple and iTunes. However some of my friends and colleagues really like iTunes - though some arent mad on the iPod, they stick with it because of iTunes.

I'm open minded - the comments above are helping me evaluate.

[Doctor Jeep]

iPod plus points:

Sleek, slim and light (particularly the Nano)
Jog wheel is good
Fashion icon
Good software even a muppet could use

iPod negative points:

Expensive
Average sound
Battery replacement is a pain
Plastic so not very durable and very easy to scratch
Prone to crashing
No mains charger as standard, just USB

Walkman plus points:

Sounds better
Very well built
Very resistant to scratches
Battery lasts 20 hours for NWA1000 and 35 hours NWA3000
Surprisingly cheap
User replaceable battery
Comes with a mains charger & USB charger

Walkman negative points:

Connect software is crap(SonicStage works perfectly well though)
Heavier than an iPod (metal casing though, so better anyway)
People will always comment "you should have got an iPod":SLEEP:

I've no idea about the other brands such as Creative or Archos, I narrowed my search down to the iPod and Walkman, of which I have now owned both.

[garyi]

Jeep there is an flaw in your argument. Per gig iPods are some of the cheapest on the market.

One tip for potential purchasers of any MP3 device, if it will accept drag and drop loading (ipods do not) then you can still use itunes. In the preferences click advanced and tick the keep m usic organised and copy to itunes folder. import cds with itunes and use the software to play music on your computer. Then navigate to the itunes music folder, where it will all be stored neatly in folders by artist then album.

This will not work for itunes purchased music, but then I rather think this is not a big consideration for you guys.

[Donut]

I recently bought a little 512Mb Sony player and also own a sony Atrac CD player. I really like SonicStage (I know everyone slags it off) and prefer it to iTunes. However if you are concerned about being tied into iTunes you should be aware that Sony tie you into SonicStage (latest version is 3.4 and even better). I think this is still the case for the walkman - not sure thou. There is a little piece of software that you can download that sits on the Sony that allows drag and drop as though it is a "normal" mp3 player and therefore makes this less of an issue. Atrac3plus (Sonys own compression) is much better than mp3 compression in my experience and takes up less space. Atrac3plus at 64kbps is better than mp3 at 128 so half the space.
To conclude - if you already have a load of mp3s on your pc then I'd probably do for a Creative which sound pretty good. If you are starting from scratch, want the best sound for file size, better (than iPOD) build and don't mind being tied into Sony get the Walkman. If you want to use iTunes and carry photos/videos then consider the iPODs - but you pay a premium for the name with these I feel and get these facilities with the Creative and others - and really if you want photo/video you really should take a look at the amazing PSP:-)
Hope that's given you even more to think about;-)
Donut

[Doctor Jeep]

Jeep there is an flaw in your argument. Per gig iPods are some of the cheapest on the market.

One tip for potential purchasers of any MP3 device, if it will accept drag and drop loading (ipods do not) then you can still use itunes. In the preferences click advanced and tick the keep m usic organised and copy to itunes folder. import cds with itunes and use the software to play music on your computer. Then navigate to the itunes music folder, where it will all be stored neatly in folders by artist then album.

This will not work for itunes purchased music, but then I rather think this is not a big consideration for you guys.

Agreed. Per gig they are but per actual device they're not. The 30 & 60GB iPods could be considered good value for money but as a previous poster has said, the Sony Atrac 3 compression rate of 64kbps (which is indistinguishable from WAV on portable headphones) makes such huge storage space unnecessary.

[Nomoretweaks]

My son got 20G Sony for his BD and I have got 30G iPod as a present - IMHO iPod is more of a fashion accessory with lot of unnesessary options and short battery life, Sony is more practical, and I prefer SonicStage to iTunes. To me iPod sounds a bit better than Sony though. My son charges his Sony once a week, I do it every second day.

[Doctor Jeep]

I find it amazing that you think the iPod sounds better. Have you listened to both with the EQ off and using the same ear/headphones? You can make one sound better than the other if one has a dodgy EQ setting. Also, was the file size identical on each device when you did the listening comparison? Still, I'm not saying for one moment that the iPod sounds bad.:cool:

[Nomoretweaks]

To my ears iPod sounds fuller and causes less fatique. BTW be aware that EQ eats a lot of battery power.

[Doctor Jeep]

We'll have to agree to disagree there. The iPod sounds fine but the Walkman sounds great (to my ears):MILD:

[garyi]

And as usual this is what it comes down to, preference, no one is in a position to say which sounds better.

To me they all sound similar and the main improvements come from not changing the device but changing the head phones.

[MikeD]

For the Mac/iTunes users (I'm looking at you, Gary), there is a very good plugin called iTuneMyWalkman (http://ilari.scheinin.fidisk.fi/itunemywalkman/). I use it with my SE W800, it autodetects when I plug the Memory Stick in and syncs the card with a playlist. Easy peasy :)

[greg]

You see, I'm approaching this from the POV of:

1. slowly recording most of my vinyl for the purpose of archiving/protecting and making available to DJ using CDs/laptop instead of damaging my discs when playing out.

In this regard I want to make sure I pick the most suitable digital file format - fidelity takes priority over file size, but size is a consideration. This would of course make my vinyl collection available to listen to elsewhere - at work and on personal audio device and would also mean I could opt to use a SqueezeBox or similar at home without using my decks.

2. ripping my CDs for organising and listening at work (and SB at home)

3. listening to a subset of music on a PAD when cycling. My commute to work is a sub 10min walk so not the greatest need for music.

4. I guess I will at some point fancy dipping my toe in buying tracks via iTunes so I dont really want to rule that out.


As such I do want to buy a device, but the decisive factor would most probably be which file format I would be happiest recording my vinyl to. This choice would probably determine which device was the natural pick.

So any thoughts regards the benefits and drawbacks of the various file formats? Am I to presume tracks downloaded from iTunes can be converted somehow to other formats? Is the Sony format the best regards quality and compression? etc,...

[garyi]

Greg the format for most download sites including itunes is not great and connot reasonably be converted to anything better.

Lossless will be the best bet for sound quality through HIFI etc but this means far far less music on your MP3 player which always state the amount of tunes you can store in the lowest quality possible. Battery life will be seriously compromised on harddrive based models as well as the harddrive will need to be accessed a lot more, this is also true of Sony. Their excellent battery life comes from for instance a measurment of 64kbs burns (really f**ing poor) and no back light. Apples iPods state for 128kbs (Pretty poor) and no back lights etc.

My opinion of any of these devices is can it do me what I want? For instance who is likely to ba able to listen to one (Or want to) 16 hours out of a day? If you are not that person get a device that you can easily plug in when you get home, job done.

The main down side I see to your wish list is a lot of what you need to do will naturally need to be in different formats. Such as best for home listening and compressed for MP3 storage, this is often a pain.

One other thing, I would far prefer to damage, even a rarish disk than my Laptop. In other words, back up the records to harddrive but continue to use them on the road (this would be my opinion)

[greg]

Gary - useful advice, much appreciated. I think I'm being too businesslike about it - ie. I'm trying to formulate an end-to-end "solution", but along the way I'm not facing the reality. Broad brush strokes an all that... :)

[greg]

For the Mac/iTunes users (I'm looking at you, Gary), there is a very good plugin [url=http://ilari.scheinin.fidisk.fi/itunemywalkman/]called iTuneMyWalkman[/url. I use it with my SE W800, it autodetects when I plug the Memory Stick in and syncs the card with a playlist. Easy peasy :)I presume this would also work with a NWA1000 too?

[Doctor Jeep]

Atrac 3 at 64kbps sounds JUST THE SAME as wav through earphones and even Sennheiser PX100 headphones. Now I am sure that played through a very good hifi system there is bound to be a noticeable drop in quality but through portable headphones the Atrac compression is amazing. Fact, I've tried it. Recording at 64kbps not using Atrac compression DOES sound cack. So, on a Sony Walkman you will be able to store more songs due to the superior Sony compression tools and thus need less hard drive capacity. I have 2500 songs on my 6GB Walkman and all are recorded at Atrac 64kbps. If they had sounded rubbish trust me, I would have upped the rate. I tried the exact same song ripped at lossless and also at Atrac 64kbps - both sounded IDENTICAL through headphones on my Walkman. Why, in that case, take up more hard drive space using a supposedly higher quality file? Oh and my idea of music quality isn't poor, I am a musician by trade and have a decent home hifi rig. Atrac is the best compression tool out there for portable devices IMO.

[garyi]

Jeep you are passionate and thats great but because you have heard something and formed an opinion does not make it 'Fact'

As usual its down to the individual to try out these devices and decide for them selves what sounds the best for their preferences, it might be that shiny knobs and funky software will have no baring for some people once they have heard the devices.

[Donut]

My recommendation for vinyl would be to record it to wav files and burn to CD. I use a Yamaha cd recorder with a built in hard drive. This is an amazing piece of kit and allows minidisk style editing ie you can cut out the silent bits and create track that relate to the track on the LP. This may not be much help but for archiving vinyl you really should be looking at uncompressed wav files IMO. After this I guess the most widely used format for "distributing" the files would be mp3 but I still think for personal use you'd be hard pushed to beat a 64kbpd Atrac3plus file on a portable player

Donut

[SteveC]

...I tried the exact same song ripped at lossless and also at Atrac 64kbps - both sounded IDENTICAL through headphones on my Walkman. Why, in that case, take up more hard drive space using a supposedly higher quality file?... Some people want a very high fidelity "interchangeable" format like a lossless in case they need a higher quality version in perhaps another format later. In such a case they don't relish re-ripping the entire collection. So one might have a high-quality archive and a lower quality set of copies for specific purposes like fitting on a mobile mp3. I'm not one of these people and make do with 320bps mp3 for both purposes (archive and working copies) but you see the point I hope.

[3DSonics]

Hi,

Atrac 3 at 64kbps sounds JUST THE SAME as wav through earphones and even Sennheiser PX100 headphones.

My wife has the latest Sony Walkmen Phone.

Atrac at 64kbps sounds atrocious, even listening on a noisy bus or tube train. Even on easy to compress and low production value pop music. With the supplied earbud headphones which sure are nothing special. MP3 at 192kbps or better 256kbps still has notable problems with some material but is bearable for the Bus and Tube.

All in my experience of course.

Ciao T

[PBirkett]

Regarding ipods its worth noting earlier ones had a "bass deficiency" problem - there is plenty on the internet about this issue. The later ones (shuffle, nano, etc) apparently use a new output and sound a lot better.

[Doctor Jeep]

Hi,



My wife has the latest Sony Walkmen Phone.

Atrac at 64kbps sounds atrocious, even listening on a noisy bus or tube train. Even on easy to compress and low production value pop music. With the supplied earbud headphones which sure are nothing special. MP3 at 192kbps or better 256kbps still has notable problems with some material but is bearable for the Bus and Tube.

All in my experience of course.

Ciao T

Don't understand that at all mate, I know it's one opinion versus another but I tried ripping at different qualities in order to test out just what was acceptable and found there to be no perceived difference between WAV at 1411kbps and Atrac at 64kbps! That's a hell of a difference in file size and I wasn't listening on the tube either! I was in a totally quiet room and listening through Sennheiser PX100 headphones (not the greatest quality but much better than the supplied earbuds) - if I noticed zero difference in sound I'm amazed that you thought it was "atrocious" when ripped at 64kbps. Were you definitely using Atrac 64kbps or just plain old 64 kbps? Isn't it amazing how people interpret different things? I'm not saying that I'm right & you're wrong but I just can't see this at all. I have good hearing and am used to the sound of a decent hifi system. I don't see how I would accept poor sound for the sake of it, as I said earlier, I would have ripped my tracks at a higher file size if I'd thought it was noticeable.:confused:

[3DSonics]

Hi,

Don't understand that at all mate,

I actually do.

I know it's one opinion versus another but I tried ripping at different qualities in order to test out just what was acceptable and found there to be no perceived difference between WAV at 1411kbps and Atrac at 64kbps! That's a hell of a difference in file size and I wasn't listening on the tube either! I was in a totally quiet room and listening through Sennheiser PX100 headphones (not the greatest quality but much better than the supplied earbuds) - if I noticed zero difference in sound

Which suggests that you are either:

a) Not sensitive to the aberations introduced by perceptual coding (I am)

b) Listen(ed) to music which is not sensitive to the aberations introduced by perceptual coding

c) Sufficiently convinced by Sony's propaganda (or hope sufficiently that it is true) that your perception rejects the actual difference

d) Have a device whose audio stages are so bad they obscure the differences

As said, listening to pretty generic, if somewhat demanding pop on my wives Walkmen Phone (BTW, it does not sound as good as using my Pocket PC) revealed the usual artifacts (especially around vocal intelligibility and wherever stuff got complex), except to a degree that made normal MP3 at 192KHz (I normally use this as my own use, 192KHz via Lame using maximum encoding quality settings) seem quite clean by comparison.

I'm amazed that you thought it was "atrocious" when ripped at 64kbps. Were you definitely using Atrac 64kbps or just plain old 64 kbps?

This was Sony's own file format via Sony's software and is supposed to be "Advanced" Atrac3 64k. Music ripped via Sony's software directly from CD.

Comparison same tracks @ 192KHz via Lame, ripping via EAC.

I did this when I was disgusted with how bad things sounded when hearing what my wife had ripped into her phone (alos compared to the FM radio, which is pretty bad too), I just got her the darn thing (she loves it) and expected it all to work without trouble. I had to teach her how to use EAC/Lame and how to copy files onto her memory stick plus get a reader for the memory stick after she heard the difference as well.

Isn't it amazing how people interpret different things?

Not at all. It is rather expected. Peoples hearing and the following interpretative process differ rather greatly. Many other variables are added on top.

As said, I find MP3 @ 192KHz (via Lame, most other encoders are worde) acceptable for listening on public transport in terms of quality. Anything below that datarate is just too obviously compromised, be it MP4 or Atrac or anything else I have tried so far. My wife cannot tell 192K MP3 from CD, or at least so she says (that is on the big rig, not walkmen), I can easily.

Ciao T

[greg]

Thorsten - is it possible the W800 sounds different to the NWA1000/3000?

[3DSonics]

Hi,

Thorsten - is it possible the W800 sounds different to the NWA1000/3000?

Absolutely, it is also possible that the W-800 Atrac3 decoder is much worse than it's MP3 decoder, who is to say. Might be worth re-doing the comparison on my Media Laptop (it has a rather decent headphone stage, much better than either W-800 or my Pocket PC) using all decoders in software, latest versions and with directsound to kill K-Mixer. Except the laptop gets rarely dragged around, the test would be academic to me.

Ciao T

[greg]

My point being DJ may have drawn different conclusions regards the ATRAC format because of the device used. Noones asking you to perform any kind of comparison so what's the point of saying such a comparison would provide nothing to you?

So DJ's conclusions may well be relevant regards the NWA1/3000 which is the subject for comparison with the iPod.

[julian2002]

dj, iirc atrac is a sony proprietory closed source format which means i'd have rejected for pc audio it even if it did sound exactly the same as lossless. if you find atrac easy to use then great but personally i prefer wma at 128 transcoded from flacs (which i use to listen to when at home via my hi-fi) i've had minidisc's before which have used various versions of atrac and all have sounded less than ideal. i'd not go back to it.
cheers

julian

[Doctor Jeep]

Julian, I was in the situation where I was starting from scratch much like Greg is. I'd loaded my previous iPod via a friend's pc but with my Walkman I used my new laptop. I had no mp3 files on there, no iTunes and no music whatsoever. I was in the situation where I could save tracks in any format I liked with no real hang-ups. Besides, with SonicStage you can play the saved Atrac64 files on your pc anyway. FWIW I find the (latest incarnation) Atrac64 format fantastic, anyone who says otherwise is either being pedantic (IMO) or has compatibility issues with changing from previously ripped formats etc. It has helped me a bundle as I have managed to cram tons of tracks onto my 6GB Walkman when I was wondering if I should have bought the 20GB instead. There was no need in the end so I'm glad I got the smaller and more portable unit.:D

[3DSonics]

Hi,

My point being DJ may have drawn different conclusions regards the ATRAC format because of the device used.

<snip>

So DJ's conclusions may well be relevant regards the NWA1/3000 which is the subject for comparison with the iPod.

That is indeed so. Though it still raises the question "why", which bears on the next point

Noones asking you to perform any kind of comparison so what's the point of saying such a comparison would provide nothing to you?

I asked myself to consider doing such a comparison, as it would be needed to determine if we have an inherent issue with Atrac3 or one with the Device used. The test I proposed more or less to myself would do so, however it would be very limited relevance to myself and indeed to others.

Perhaps the upshot is that if one considers such a device one should take along a Data-CD or memory stick with a few tracks one finds especially revealing and/or representative of the music the device would be used with, pre-encoded using a variety of methodes so the formats can be compared and to ask the retailer to transfer these files without transcoding and to have a listen to these.

In that case for example if one device was worse with trac3 than with MP3 but another had no difference one would be able to tell and decide accordingly. With only 512MB for music my wife's phone/walkman could use to sound good with 64k Atrac3, even my pocket PC (which can be given software to play it) would appreciate a good sounding low bitrate format, sadly so far that free lunch has escaped me (I usually get quite a few free lunches a year at industry events)...

Ciao T

[Nomoretweaks]

Hi,



My wife has the latest Sony Walkmen Phone.

Atrac at 64kbps sounds atrocious, even listening on a noisy bus or tube train. Even on easy to compress and low production value pop music. With the supplied earbud headphones which sure are nothing special. MP3 at 192kbps or better 256kbps still has notable problems with some material but is bearable for the Bus and Tube.

All in my experience of course.

Ciao T


I would second that. I was not impressed by Atrac either, to my ears MP3 192kbs is absolute minimum.

[johnhunt]

I manage to leave my hifi obsession at home when on bus or train. as long as its music i want to listen then little else matters. ipod = fine for the job as i'm sure would be any of the other ones out there. the patch that overrides the volume limiter is useful though

[julian2002]

3dsonic,
i've found that 128bit wma seems to be the sweet spot between size and quality for lossy codecs. i presume you've tried that and found it wanting? i guess it's different strokes for different folks.

dj,
as atrac is sonys own format i suspect that it's as easy to use with a walkman as itunes / aac is with an ipod. as i use a squeezebox and aprieciate open source fromats and despise drm i use flac as my main source (once i've ripped the cd) i can then transcode to whatever format i like using foobar. as i say above for my portable players (arcos gmini 500, creative nano and orange spv c550) i prefer wma as it provides a decent sound at generally lower bitrates than mp3. i've done tests where slimserver (the software that drives the squeezebox) transcodes from lossless flac to a variety of codecs on the fly (although not atrac) at differing bit rates and can start telling the difference at around mp3 192 and wma 128. but then i think transcoding from flac to wav and then sending the wav to the squeezebox on the fly is better than using it's own internal flac processing so i may be insane. if you are happy with the sound of atrac on your walkman then great however there are no absolutes in hi-fi as everyone is different so trying to say that atrac is all that's needed is just not gonna fly

[3DSonics]

Hi,

i've found that 128bit wma seems to be the sweet spot between size and quality for lossy codecs. i presume you've tried that and found it wanting?

No, for some reason I have been steadfastly ignoring wma (you know, the anti M$ Sentiments I harbour). Thanks for the tip, I'll try this, as my Pocket PC of course natively plays WMA....

Ciao T

[julian2002]

to be honest i was a bit of an m$ basher but they've been quietly producing some very nice stuff lately - the 360 is great and my windows phone synchs with my pc in a way that nokia and sony can only dream. even my archos would integrate into my media collection seamlessly if i was using media player instead of slim server.
the only down side about wma is the potential for drm intrusion but if you are ripping your own cd's and don;t use media player then it's a slim chance they'll get nobbled. but then this is the case with most proprietory formats and ms would be fools to do this.

[badchamp]

the patch that overrides the volume limiter is useful though

News to me!

Further details please :)
Jeff

[3DSonics]

Hi,

to be honest i was a bit of an m$ basher but they've been quietly producing some very nice stuff lately

I noticed. I have had a Pocket PC/Phone for nearly 2 Years.... My "whole life" is in there. I read books (or anything else I want and can get an electronic copy into word) in Microsoft Reader. Heck, yesterday I aclually loaded a cooking recipy off the net in there (very tasty Goulash soup) and cooked from that! My music for the move is on that, I get all my e-mailz via GPRS.

DARN, where was such a nice thing in the 80's when I could have REALLY used it....

my windows phone synchs with my pc in a way that nokia and sony can only dream.

Tell me 'bout it. I have Bluetooth in my Laptop and my Pocket PC/Phone, so when I get home I just click on "Syncronise via Blutooth" and put the thing in it's charging cradle....

Then I can drag'n'drop my music acrooss wireless or indeed can use "syncronise media device", but because I pre-process my files to get the "in head" localisation issue somewhat improved (it makes the imaging often wierd, quite often behind me, rather than in front, but at least the band is not trying to play in my head) drag'n'drop is preferable.

Ciao T

[Doctor Jeep]

I've read about people wanting the volume limiter hack for the Walkman but in my settings menu there is an on/off facility for this. I only listen at volumes 1-4 anyway so it makes no difference to me. I haven't tested how loud it goes but it's more than loud enough for me.:cool:

[johnhunt]

http://www.tucows.com/preview/400027

Jeff

i downloaded it from the net and it seemed to work. it might or might not have been the url above - I can't remember. I probably have it on my home pc so if you can't find it let me know

John

[greg]

I read books (or anything else I want and can get an electronic copy into word) in Microsoft Reader.A true Microsoft hater then. :)

...I get all my e-mailz via GPRS.You'd love 3G.

Tell me 'bout it. I have Bluetooth in my Laptop and my Pocket PC/Phone, so when I get home I just click on "Syncronise via Blutooth" and put the thing in it's charging cradle....Recent crop of Nokia's aint so bad. N70 synchs Calendar, To Do's, Contacts, Photos and Video via Bluetooth without me touching anything - just when the connection is engaged. Deletes photos and vids automatically once transferred to the notebook. Email is via IMAP over 3G, has Acrobat Reader, Excel, Word and Powerpoint so I can read attachments. I havent bought the little bluetooth keyboard, but that looks good.

Plus i dont look a d*ck when talking on it ;)

[greg]

This seems cheap (http://www.ebuyer.com/customer/products/index.html?action=c2hvd19wcm9kdWN0X292ZXJ2aWV3&product_uid=98996) (or is it me?)

[3DSonics]

Hi,

A true Microsoft hater then. :)

Nah, I'll just naturally think of a M$ solution last.

Recent crop of Nokia's aint so bad. N70 synchs Calendar, To Do's, Contacts, Photos and Video via Bluetooth without me touching anything - just when the connection is engaged. Deletes photos and vids automatically once transferred to the notebook. Email is via IMAP over 3G, has Acrobat Reader, Excel, Word and Powerpoint so I can read attachments.

It probably is now a M$ windows Mobile 03/05 device, same as mine has been for the last two years, so you still need to initiate the actual connection, which is what I refering to on mine.

Plus i dont look a d*ck when talking on it ;)

Me neither, I'm always on BT handsfree.... :p

Ciao T

[greg]

It probably is now a M$ windows Mobile 03/05 device, same as mine has been for the last two years, so you still need to initiate the actual connection, which is what I refering to on mine.Symbian O/S so no, not Microsoft. The connection is automatic - bluetooth is on on the phone and the notebook, they are configured to be paired (this is done once), then whenever both devices are on and in-range the synchronisation takes place at an interval you configure. no buttons, no clicks. The phone is not much bigger than the typical SonyEricsson W800/K750i, though is 3G.

[garyi]

on Ipod, select all tunes in iTunes then right click 'Get Info' it will ask if you are sure you say yes.

A screen will come up and at the bottom is a slider bar for volume set in the middle, move it to the right a bit to raise the output volume of all tracks, don't go mad.

Click OK. It will update the tracks and when you plug the iPod in it will update them.

[Matt F]

I went for a Creative Zen recently - £120 for a 20gb machine seemed like great value to me.

Matt

[Dev]

my windows phone synchs with my pc in a way that nokia and sony can only dream.
Sorry to take the thread off topic but what phone do you have now? I only ask because I recently replaced my SonyEricsson 700i with an XDA mini S and found it had the usual MS characteristics. It hung twice in a day but also managed to reboot my XP. At other times though, it syncs very well:D. I'm going to take it back on Saturday. Pity really:(.

[julian2002]

i went for an orange spv c550 - special music edition with the 512mb card. i wanted a sony w800 but orange wanted 200 quid for one and the spv was 'free'.

http://www.coolsmartphone.com/article451.html

[3DSonics]

Hi,

i went for an orange spv c550 - special music edition with the 512mb card. i wanted a sony w800 but orange wanted 200 quid for one and the spv was 'free'.

Hey, mine is also "Oranje"... I got the by now ancient M1000 aka XDA2 aka HTC Himalaya. My wifes W800 was free with T-Mobile.

Ciao T

[michaelab]

my windows phone synchs with my pc in a way that nokia and sony can only dream.My SonyEricsson K750i syncs with my Mac (via iSync) in a way that Windows users can only dream of ;)

Incidentally the K750i is a nice little MP3 player once you give it a big memory card and some decent phones. Only downside is that it doesn't have the "flight mode" of the W800i (identical hardware, different firmware). It's possible to flash the K750i with W800i firmware but I didn't want to get into those shenanigans.

Michael.

[julian2002]

t, my contract is for very few minutes as i phone a lot of non geographical 'local rate' landline numbers in the course of my business therefore i have a limited choice when it comes to subsidised phones.
michael,
the k750i was another phone i was considering but again orange wanted money for it and i'd had a bunch of se's before that (r380, t68, p800) and they all broke in one way or another after about a year (usually something to do with the keypad).
cheers


julian

[greg]

This seems cheap (http://www.ebuyer.com/customer/products/index.html?action=c2hvd19wcm9kdWN0X292ZXJ2aWV3&product_uid=98996) (or is it me?)Anyone else consider this rather cheap for a 30GB iPod? I hadnt really considered a "full size" one, but the price makes the nano look expensive.

[michaelab]

That price is unbelievable. 30Gb iPod is about £220 from Apple and meaningful discounts are almost unheard of so I'd proceed with caution and ask them how they can manage such a low price. Could be grey-market US imports.

Michael.

[greg]

That price is unbelievable. 30Gb iPod is about £220 from Apple and meaningful discounts are almost unheard of so I'd proceed with caution and ask them how they can manage such a low price. Could be grey-market US imports.

Michael.Thanks for the heads-up Michael. I would be surprised though if eBuyer would sell grey imports, in our experience (ie. work wise) they have always proved to be excellent price and service-wise. I'll ask them though.

[garyi]

My personal preference is to purchase from the apple store, the prices across the board should be similar anyhow and if things do go wrong you are straight to base and not through a third party.

[PBirkett]

Surely you could still contact apple even if you bought elsewhere? I know the trader can usually be used in these cases, but I see no reason why you couldnt use the manufacturers warranty yourself.

[yorkio]

It's also worth keeping an eye on the refurb section of the Apple store. You get a hefty discount but still a full warranty etc. I got my iPod from there a couple of years ago and couldn't figure out what was refurbished about it - so far as I could tell it was a new one, just a third cheaper than anywhere else I could buy it.

[Doctor Jeep]

The refurbished ones get new cases and to all intents and purposes do look brand new. The insides may be 'used' though but if they put a full warranty on it and the discount is decent it may be a good option.

[Heath]

I would be surprised though if eBuyer would sell grey imports, in our experience (ie. work wise) they have always proved to be excellent price and service-wise.
A lot of the electronics that eBuyer sell are grey imports. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing - the products are still fully featured, etc - you just need to be careful with the manufacturer warranties on some items. They're not the only trader that sources products on the grey market to lower prices though. I've had loads of monitors, etc, that have come through with european power cables in the box. I've never had a problem with eBuyer's customer service so wouldn't hesitate to buy from them, although I've never had to return anything under warranty (only when they've sent through the wrong item).

Heath