Wilson X-1 Grand Slamm

[MO!]

HERE (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3051111260&category=14993)

http://www.soundexonline.com/images/e_bin/wilson3.jpg

Opening price of $34k

Interesting to see a seller with zero feedback rating starting off with such an expensive item! Not implying anything dodgy! There's a phone number and email address, just seems to be jumping in at the high end!

Not too keen on them looks MOself!

Oh well, i'll put my $34K back in my pocket :D

[michaelab]

Ken Kessler creamed himself about those speakers in a recent issue of HFN. I think they're quite a bit more than $34K new (I think in fact they're more like $120K :eek: so it would be a bargain if you moved in those kinds of circles!)

Michael.

[MO!]

It says 80K retail on there.

And apparently a bargain at that price too!

[tones]

Two pairs and a bag of dolly mixtures, please.

[I-S]

Looking at the pic that mo posted....

If you had these speakers, would you sit that close to them?

[tones]

Originally posted by Isaac Sibson
Looking at the pic that mo posted....

If you had these speakers, would you sit that close to them?

Eh? Wassat?

[7_V]

Originally posted by Isaac Sibson
If you had these speakers, would you sit that close to them?
I reckon that the ideal positioning for these babies (aesthetically and acoustically) would be somewhere in the next town, preferably the next country.

[Robbo]

Why? have you heard a pair then?

[7_V]

Originally posted by Robbo
Why? have you heard a pair then? No.

[garyi]

In fairness they do look like typical american crap, super huge and therefore super good.

All things being relative there must be better looking speakers out there that can deliver the goods. Hell even if they were twice the price, with this sort of money who cares?

£80k for a pair of speakers, some one here tell me how that could be justified. But I'll make it fair, lets assume that wilson sell to their distributors for £20k.

Someone here justify how they are £20k

[michaelab]

Originally posted by garyi
All things being relative there must be better looking speakers out there that can deliver the goods. Hell even if they were twice the price, with this sort of money who cares?
If I was going to spend that kind of money I'd probably be getting a pair of JM Focal Labs Grande Utopia Be's :) Much better looking and probably sound a lot better too.

But I agree with you garyi - IMO it's simply not possible to justify $80K for a pair of speakers.

Michael.

[merlin]

More to the point Gary, whilst I agree with your disbelief, how do Naim justify 5K for their "bad sounding tweeters on a stick":confused:

[garyi]

Merlin. I guess you ar attempting to point to the pointlessness of it all, after all one mans meat is another mans etc etc.

Although I think you will agree a lot of the american market is like everything else they sell, super huge, super slow and super ugly.

[julian2002]

michael,
the ones kk creamed himself over were the alexandrias which superceed the x1's i believe.
i'd love to hear a pair, just so i can shake my head and say they're bollocks from a position of knowledge.
aparently somewhere in colorado very rich man has had a big hole blown in a mountainside and then filled it with a home theatre. he uses 5+ of these! aparently it cost over a million dollars.....
cheers


julian

[Robbo]

But I agree with you garyi - IMO it's simply not possible to justify $80K for a pair of speakers

I dont see a problem with it. If people work hard to earn their money and decide they want to spend it on $80K speakers, good luck to them I say. Its their money, thay can do what they like with it.

[7_V]

Originally posted by Robbo
I dont see a problem with it. If people work hard to earn their money and decide they want to spend it on $80K speakers, good luck to them I say. Its their money, thay can do what they like with it.
Absolutely right, although I suspect that people are asking how the manufacturer can justify the price tag, not whether someone who enjoys the sound can justify the purchase.

[michaelab]

Of course if someone with a bundle of cash wants to blow $80K on a pair of speakers then it's totally up to them but I simply can't see how anyone could justify it from a price/performance point of view.

However, we've had this argument on here before and it doesn't really lead anywhere so I'll shut up now :)

Michael.

[I-S]

Originally posted by garyi
Although I think you will agree a lot of the american market is like everything else they sell, super huge, super slow and super ugly.

I sentence you to three months being bashed over the head with a meadowlark...

[MO!]

Originally posted by 7_V
Absolutely right, although I suspect that people are asking how the manufacturer can justify the price tag, not whether someone who enjoys the sound can justify the purchase.

Yep, that's where I thought the price criticism comes in.

Much like them 7th Veil speakers! Anyone seen them? Cost an arm and a leg! And as for them Omiga Audio cables!

;)

[Robbo]

Dont worry Isaac, Gary obviously hasn't heard much yank kit and is just relying on the same tired old Naimie prejudices:)

[I-S]

With regard to the pricing issue, you sell things for what people will pay for them. If that's 10 times what it costs to make them, then great. If it's twice what it costs, then that's not too bad. If it's less, you don't bother.

Of course, there's always the issue of whether you'd sell enough extra at a lower price that you'd make more money overall, but then there's the question of whether you can meet that demand at the same standard of quality, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc

IMO, it's just a matter of how good something is at the price. I expect that the grand slamms are amazing, but so is the price.

And those Blue Heron 2s look mighty fine....

[7_V]

Originally posted by Isaac Sibson
With regard to the pricing issue, you sell things for what people will pay for them. If that's 10 times what it costs to make them, then great. If it's twice what it costs, then that's not too bad. If it's less, you don't bother.
You're right Isaac, although the distributors want a 25%-30% margin and dealers want 40%-50%. Shipping costs and whatever tax and duties the government sees fit must also be included. If a manufacturer doesn't sell for over 5x cost, he probably won't be in business long. I sell for less but try to deal directly with the public.

[julian2002]

gary,
further to robbo's reply i can confirm at the recent hi-fi show i heard and handled what is perhaps the epitome of american hi-fi, the mark levinson 360s cd player.
soundwise it was exactly what i was expecting, a bit boring and very safe... heft wise the buttons felt like plastic and the draw was laughable when compared to a cd5 or cdx. hmmm must be my naimie prejudices for quality kit comming through :D

as for price, wilson have probably got it about right as, if i recall correctly, they've sold then next 2 years production for alexandrias.

cheers


julian

[bottleneck]

Originally posted by Robbo
Dont worry Isaac, Gary obviously hasn't heard much yank kit and is just relying on the same tired old Naimie prejudices:)

Yes, Id agree there is a lot of US bashing by some Naim enthusiasts.

I suppose it must come from a different sonic/aesthetic/tecnhnological design criteria.

Meadowlark, VPI... martin logan...wadia....california audio labs....red rose...magnaplanar...canary audio....audio research...conrad johnson

(hope they were all US, I think so )....

but anyway, how can anyone maintain a point of view that US kit isnt great with names to conjour with like those?

[merlin]

Originally posted by garyi
Although I think you will agree a lot of the american market is like everything else they sell, super huge, super slow and super ugly.

Actually Gary I don't see it that way at all. I sadly have yet to hear any British kit that approaches what the yanks and canadians are producing (with the exception of Border Patrol, Living Voice, EAR and possibly dCS)

I don't have a single bit of Brit Pap, and IMO the gear I am listening to is better built, better looking,better value and better sounding:p

At least with US kit, you can usually see where your money went, rather than having to believe the hype in the domestic press to justify the unjustifiable. And it's not that US gear is super huge. It's just that UK living rooms are super small;)

[wadia-miester]

Originally posted by bottleneck Yes, Id agree there is a lot of US bashing by some Naim enthusiasts

I think Garyi, was mildly surprised at what correct synergised :D Yank components can do :) with a few small adjustments

[garyi]

Tony, I agree your system sounded good. With regards to your 'adjustments' though...

Did you not mention that Teac for instance were dog boring before mods? If wadia is the be all and end all of everything, why the modifications? (I am guessing neither is americanm but related no?)

I liked the medowlarks though, no argument there.

Merlin, sorry didn't realise you ran american kit, would explain the need for the tact no doubt :p

[lowrider]

I have 50% European, speakers, subwoofers and source, 50% American, processor and powers... :MILD:

Not including cables and tweaks, mostly European, and TV (European too)...

The Wilson Watt/Puppies 7 can sound fantastic, but wouldn´t fit in my budget or room... :rolleyes:

[merlin]

Gary, the reason for the Tact is to get full range reproduction in my typically insubstantial British listening room.

Some manufacturers closer to home choose to tailor their setups for these conditions, by, for example, designing speakers for use against a wall and giving them no bass whatsoever.

Sadly not an option for someone interested in the proper stuff, although very tasty from an interior designer's standpoint:p

[Markus S]

I'd expect quite a lot of X-1s on the market as owners want to upgrade to the X-2 Alexandria. The X-1 was a real product; even at $80k, Wilson sold several hundred.

It changed the market for superspeakers overnight. No manufacturer could be serious about his top speakers if they didn't also cost $80k. Unfortunately, few manufacturers had the know-how, and the resources, to actually produce speakers that might conceivably be worth $80k ...

I used to be very down on Wislon speakers. Earlier incarnations of the Watt/Puppy in particular didn't do it for me. But I have heard an excellent demo of the Sophia, which sounded really rather good, and said at the time that Wilson was going to have to upgrade the W/P soon. Reportedly, the W/P 7 is now better than the Sophia and has re-established the pecking order in the Wilson stable.

[sideshowbob]

Originally posted by merlin

At least with US kit, you can usually see where your money went

Generally on the casework and the machined from something daft remote control, as far as the electronics go. :D

I run all UK kit apart from the tuner. EAR, Michell, ATC, Sonneteer. All exceptionally built, unpretentious, and great sounding. I would say "musical" but that's obviously a no-no.

-- Ian

[merlin]

Originally posted by Markus Sauer
It changed the market for superspeakers overnight. No manufacturer could be serious about his top speakers if they didn't also cost $80k. Unfortunately, few manufacturers had the know-how, and the resources, to actually produce speakers that might conceivably be worth $80k ...


See Roy Gregory's comments in this month's HIFI+ for full text:rolleyes:

Really people looking at journalism need to learn to think for themselves rather than simply paraphrase others. Unless of course Markus really is RG's internet persona, in which case, who gave that nutter JH a job:rolleyes:

[Markus S]

Might be a case of two great minds thinking alike ...

Seriously, though, my comments above came from a discussion I had about two weeks ago with a German speaker designer about how the Alexandria was changing the market place at the very top end, again. And while I do have a subsciption to Hifi +, I can't remember reading anything like that from RG (who is most definitely not my alter ego).

Interesting, though, that you seem to learn Hifi + text by heart, Merlin.

[merlin]

RG. Literally overnight it changed the speaker market, and suddenly, companies who had been quite happily existing with a $30,000 flagship were scrabbling to produce something at the $80,000 price point, because unless you had an $80,000 speaker you were no longer taken seriously. They may not have the appropriate technology or materials to produce a worthwhile $80,000 speaker, but the market demands it.

Sorry Markus, it's from an interview with Neil Patel, and your precied version was just so close, and I have a decent memory;)

You must admit it's an amazing coincidence:D

[Markus S]

Will have to read that interview ...

Either the speaker designer (Manfred Diestertich of audio physic) had read the hifi+ issue, which is unlikely, or it's an insight that's less original than I thought and has been obvious to more than one person active in those market strata.

I'll have to admit, though, that the wording is pretty damn close, at least the opening sentences, so I can see how your suspicions were roused. Oh well, I'll retract my statement.

[wadia-miester]

Markus, I've heard Wilson's on a couple of occations, and quite frankly they we no more than average (watt Puppies 5/6), even when accopanied with quilty gear, I feel the biggest factor with these monsters is the room period, so either you have a spare victorian manision kicking about, or your just in to extreme near-field monitorisum :D I'd pass for sure, but then for those who must have the biggest etc, it's a 'Must have purchase' Wm

[Markus S]

Originally posted by wadia-miester
I've heard Wilson's on a couple of occations, and quite frankly they we no more than average (watt Puppies 5/6), even when accopanied with quilty gear
No argument. I don't think it's fair, though, to use past performance as a stick to beat up on manufacturers' current gear. Everybody should be given the benefit of the doubt, who knows, they may have come up with a spectacular bargain (it may even happen to Omiga Audio one day;) ).

For the record, I liked the Sophia, but I wouldn't call it particularly good value for money.

[wadia-miester]

You never Know it may happen :D , but they are designed for Yank rooms, and they are some what 'large than our smallish UK equilvent, give them room and I'm sure they'll sing damn well :) Wm

[merlin]

Originally posted by sideshowbob
Generally on the casework and the machined from something daft remote control, as far as the electronics go. :D
- Ian

Agree, my remote could easily be classified as an offensive weapon.

But at least I've got two so it would be a fair fight.

[bottleneck]

Originally posted by garyi
Tony, I agree your system sounded good. With regards to your 'adjustments' though...

Did you not mention that Teac for instance were dog boring before mods? If wadia is the be all and end all of everything, why the modifications? (I am guessing neither is americanm but related no?)



Im not picking on you Gary, honest.

Really though, I cant think of any hifi product that can't be altered with modification. I thought companies like Avondale were famous for modding Naim kit - isnt that just the same? Changing the sound in a way that some people will prefer?

Whether Tone's modifications are improvements or not are for the individual to decide - maybe the folks at Wadia and other customers may/may not agree... - but so what - they arent listening to it !

All Im saying is that all equipment can have its sound modified by alteration - and I dont think anything that Tone ever owns will escape his soldering iron, because IMHO he likes to experiment with mods to see which ones he will prefer.

Im getting that way too in my old age :) , and its quite good fun to take products apart and changing components where a higher quality ordifferent sounding bit may make a change.


All the best
Chris

[garyi]

Bottle neck, WM system sounded great I am not disputing that the mods most likely had an effect.

However I said that american hifi was dog boring, WM dissagreed, but I just wanted to know if it ain't why the modifications (don't know if you have been to WM but most of his kit has not only been modded but transmognified, to the extent some opf it won't fit the original casework, to my eyes that means he felt the american kit need significant improvement.

[wadia-miester]

Originally posted by garyi
Bottle neck, WM system sounded great I am not disputing that the mods most likely had an effect.

However I said that american hifi was dog boring, WM dissagreed, but I just wanted to know if it ain't why the modifications (don't know if you have been to WM but most of his kit has not only been modded but transmognified, to the extent some opf it won't fit the original casework, to my eyes that means he felt the american kit need significant improvement.

Garyi, I do agree with an awful lot of yank stuff is terminal yawn, how ever there are quite a few makes that really do rock, Bryston (ok Canadian)/Sim Audio/Wadia/A/R/MSB/Belcanto/Pass Labs.
Garyi has a fair point, in that I had to tweek it to achieve the sound I liked, however I haven't changed the 'concept' of the orginal, the mods I prefermed on the Wadia 15 were 90% power related (and the lid did fit at the time, as we hadden it managed to fit suitable caps, that we man enough/correct size/board configuration constraints, so fair cop, how ever thats sussed now, all lids are on, and the New Wadia has 3 of those boards in there :) and it now starting to really sing
The other mod which was completed was the removal of the stock op-amps and the installation of some improved versions, I've not reworked the orginal design, just brought it up to speed, after all it is 8 years old ;) the same way naim/Arcam rehash there players. I've had it up against some real stonking kit, and it still punches with the best in more than a few area's
The main reason, I do 'adjust' the kit, is because, I feel that a certain piece is just screaming 'look I can do this, free me', this does apply toa lot of kit not just Wadia's.
Not for every one, but I find it fun, and you never stop learning. Wm