So, this mains business

[Joolsburger]

I have not dabbled in it at all as yet other than getting a sparky to come and put in a cable that runs from the box thing with the fuses to the 4 plugs I use for the hifi.
I did that because there were no plugs where the hi fi lives.

So Lavardin say don't use other mains cables and the TT has a captive lead, the phono stage has a big bugger of a lead already so what might be worth doing?

I know many of you are right into mains type tweakery and you can't all be misguided so maybe there's something in it.

What could I do for not much money that might convince me?

[bottleneck]

warning. FLAME ALERT!!..!!!


Ji Jools.

Cheap as chips (actually LITERALLY as cheap as a bag of chips..alright, maybe a bag of fishy and chips)

Get a ferrite ring from an electricians supplier, like RS components. It will cost literally less than £3. Stick it on the lead going to your 4 way adaptor.

It will stop a lot of the RFI. Treble will seem less hissy, and backgrounds quieter.

Not everybody likes the effect, and some people take them back off again.

I cant think of a mains tweak that comes close in terms of price and effect though.

Other tweakery is a chapter and verse to itself... from using braided cable to passively reduce RFI, shop bought mains cable, re-wiring your 4-way, de oxit on the connections - christ, the list is almost limitless.

The only thing I really havent tried is mains isolation kit - which apparently give cleaner mains. As I said - havent tried them - so cant comment.

For what its worth - my experience with trying mains cables all the way from FOC ones to Shunyata hydras, is that if I had my time over I really really quite honestly would not bother. The differences are IMO at best not much to write home about.

I know this is a rare view on the forum, and Im expecting to get linched now! lol

Try for yourself mate, and dont be afraid to say if you were or were not impressed. A home trial on some power cords and 4 ways would not be a bad idea from a shop.

this wine is making me less PC than usual... a bad thing? dunno...

Chris

[Joolsburger]

Thanks but the wine must be affecting your eyes!!! I don't have an adapter just 4 plugs attached to the wall and the cable is under the floor so getting to it is a problem!!

Other ideas sound harmless enough but why bother if there's no major shakes in doing so as you found?

I might just buy some records instead!

[bottleneck]

hehehe u might be right my friend.

Biggest illustration of it all for me, was when I asked a high end dealer to set me up ... a 'sledgehammer demonstration' as I called it..

His demo, his kit - picked for the illustration .... going from a cheapy cable into a standard 4 way block - exchanged for £1000 worth of hydra into a hydra block thing (god knows how much that cost) I heard..... naff all difference.

Naff all differences in other demonstrations Ive been to too, sometimes I can hear a difference, but it isnt to my ears one big enough to get my wallet out for.

As I said though - some people disagree with me 100%!!!!! - so dont just believe me, u might learn to hate me for it!!

All the best
Chris

[Robbo]

Bottleneck,

I disagree 100% with you:D

Do you think it is to do with the fact that you are using valve amps which are less susceptible to the crap on the mains that causes the horrid distortion in solid state amps?

Cheers, Robbo

[Robbo]

Get a ferrite ring from an electricians supplier, like RS components. It will cost literally less than £3. Stick it on the lead going to your 4 way adaptor.

It will stop a lot of the RFI. Treble will seem less hissy, and backgrounds quieter

bye bye dynamics!

I didnt like this tweak at all. sucked all the life out of my system :(

[Robbo]

Naff all differences in other demonstrations Ive been to too, sometimes I can hear a difference, but it isnt to my ears one big enough to get my wallet out for.

Chris,

On Saturday, get Graham to try the wadia with and without the trichord block. I am sure you will hear a big difference with this :D

cheers, Robbo

[bottleneck]

no mate, honestly.

Like with the shunyata demo, it was a CDP and solid state amp demo I went to. About £2k each they were, and very nice too (Hegel - hadnt heard of them before)

At Julians bake off, I could hear a little difference between some of them, but it wasnt enough to part money for IMO.. some just sounded ever so slightly brighter or duller than others, and that was it really for my ears.

As I said though, I know Im in the minority on the view but hey, guess thats ok!

Like with the green pen - its a subject that polarises view.

All the best
Chris

[Robbo]

At Julians bake off, I could hear a little difference between some of them, but it wasnt enough to part money for IMO.. some just sounded ever so slightly brighter or duller than others, and that was it really for my ears.


I agree with you, the differences were not huge at Julians. but in other setups they can be night and day IME :eek:

cheers, Robbo

[Joolsburger]

So on that basis what's a good place to have a go?

I thought about the trichord mains doodah but it's many shekels..

[kermit]

I thought about the trichord mains doodah but it's many shekels.

i,ve not heard one yet (well i have but did no comparisons), but if they,re half as good as the guys say then it,s money well spent .(imho)
for a cheaper view , you could try lynwood , which to me seem fine vfm .
and of course the cheapest view is to d.i.y , but unless you buy a case to put them in (bumps up the cost quite considerably), they are damn ugly .

this is 120 quid +vat
1000va

http://rswww.com/images/C179904-01.jpg

they,re real easy to hook up , but they are ugly .:D

[Robbo]

Joolsburger,

Try the eupen power leads, they start from £40 ish I believe and seem to work well for a number of people on the forum. Ask HenryT about a couple of weeks ago when we visited him and tried a eupen lead in his system. I use RA leads which are quite expensive so I would go with the eupen.

http://www.audusa.com/main.htm

Cheers, Robbo

[wadia-miester]

Jools, why not ask Zanash to let you borrow one of his TT DIY mains leads, they work quite well on some kit, else try a Eupen for the money you get a fair return (£48 ) if you like I can lend you one, to try completely free, (we don't sell them :p ) to try as long as you like, if you hear no difference then nothing is lost.
I would steer well clear of the ferrite rings on mains leads, as Robbo says, big 'Life killers', Chris wouldn't be the only one to doubt mains alledged benefits, but I am quite happy to state that I feel that a 30% (if not more of my systems preformance) comes from my 'Sorting out' of the 'Incoming juice'
Some systems seem to be 'more' effected by power mods than others, but in all honesty, I wouldn't ever consider building a system, without some form of mains treatment. WM

[cookiemonster]

I have recently employed the services of a Lynwood Mega Power supply - which is a 3kva tranny, currently conditioning my sources and amplification. I have also added an Olson mains filter in series on just the front end. This is all hooked up using RA Yello's.
Frankly it is has made a significant difference to my system, with a cleaner sound, tighter bass, extra detail being the main improvements. Its benefited across the board IMO, without detracting anywhere.e.g loss of prat - if anything i think it has added jest here too, with extra pace to my 'fruity', 'bubbalicious' amplification. Well worth the money - all s/h or offers - hence very cheap, and taking this into consideration a significant upgrade for the money. It has possibly had such a positive improvement due to the fact that i use lower priced equipment in the first place, which has been commented that they tend to have less well speced internal power supplys, and hence will tend to respond better to mains treatments than more high end stuff which is possibly already sorted and less in need of some good juice further down the chain.

Not to be discounted without experimentation in your own system.


Do you think it is to do with the fact that you are using valve amps which are less susceptible to the crap on the mains that causes the horrid distortion in solid state amps?

Robbo, i thought valve gear responded even better to mains tweaks, due to the inherent way in which valves operate or something? Am i wrong?

[Robbo]

i thought valve gear responded even better to mains tweaks, due to the inherent way in which valves operate or something? Am i wrong?

To be honest, I dont really know for sure. but when I tried power conditioning on my WAD kit 88 integrated, it made bugger all difference, whereas on my solid state amps it was obvious.

Cheers, Robbo

[technobear]

My system used to only sound good after 9:00 at night and was pretty rough during the day.

Then I got an Olson Sound Fantastic power strip and some Eupens (one each for the sub, amp and CD).

Now my system sounds great 24 hours a day.

Nuff said!

Chris

[batfink]

Originally posted by cookiemonster
extra pace to my 'fruity', 'bubbalicious' amplification.

:D

[michaelab]

Originally posted by technobear
Then I got an Olson Sound Fantastic power strip and some Eupens
So did I :D

2 Olson strips (one 4 plug for hifi, one 6 plug for AV) and everything that doesn't have a captive lead now has a Eupen on it (even the DVD player :eek: )

All that lot (not all bought at the same time) made a hell of a difference. I also have an IsoTek IsoPlug in the wall (between where the 2 Olsons are plugged in) and that made F-all difference.

Michael.

[wadia-miester]

So I take it that's a thumbs up for the Eupen and the oslen stuff then, can't think of why or who would suggest it, beyond me :)
Although, I have replaced them all at Chez Rock 'n' Roll :slayer: :guitar: :drum: :guitar: :slayer:

[Robbo]

nice little band you have playing there, Tone:D

[wadia-miester]

Originally posted by Robbo
nice little band you have playing there, Tone:D

Why thanks Robbo, can't think who could be skin bashing, although his technique needs a little brushing up :D

[cookiemonster]

Those blue ones look as though they are hanging themselves.:D

Is it deep purple playing?

I'll have to sort you out with some more band members.

What are the replacements then? Or are you remaining secretive?
I want a Eupen!

[wadia-miester]

Originally posted by cookiemonster
I'll have to sort you out with some more band members.

What are the replacements then? Or are you remaining secretive?
I want a Eupen!

Dino, we need a bad-ass bass player that can do more than 4/4 licks :D and a silver throated screamer, with time honoured maine,.
Dino if you want em, you got em' I have 3 available (note all with the Marinco wattgate plugs) 1 1m, 2 .5 m's PM if interested.
Replacements, well that would be telling :v: :v: :v: , but if you good and promise not to buy any more bubbaliciously fruit amps from Sevenspokes, I'll bring them round to our little swaray, along with the Densen and maybe some 'Interesting Blue peter specials' Tone

[michaelab]

I think it's fair to say that Tone's replacement mains cables are just a tad more expensive than the Eupens :D (and I know what they are so nah-nah-na-nah-nah :banana: )

Michael.

[cookiemonster]

if you good and promise not to buy any more bubbaliciously fruit amps from Sevenspokes,

:D :D

Aye, fill up the dump truck with lots of tweaky specials and polish for my turds.

BTW - i'm all RCA except XLR option on the cdp output just FYI.


Dino, we need a bad-ass bass player that can do more than 4/4 licks and a silver throated screamer, with time honoured maine,.

I'll sort a full outfit tomorrow including some hardcore bass - might chuck in a few orchestral dudes too for the culture club.
Just hope Michael doesn't notice my smilie fetish :D

You have PM incoming

http://members.lycos.co.uk/woody4mg/images/dance1.gif

[wadia-miester]

Originally posted by michaelab
:banana: )

I'm sure Robbo modeled that Smilie on Mike, it thats' Shake you booty thing, that gives it away I reckon :cool: Tone

[amazingtrade]

As you know I have a modest system based around a PM6010OSE and I can clearly tell the difference in sound quality at difference times of day, it actualy seems to sound better around 6:00pm as I assume the power stations increase their output, I have measured the voltage at this time and on average it is higher than say in the afternoon.

This is not audiphile fantesy, its common sence the more stable the mains the better the HIFI will sound, as less reguluation will be required in the compoments them selves, and even the best HIFI stuff can't reguluate the mains perfectly. As AC is a sine wave, the voltage is constantly changing, and I would imagine DC (though not sure about this) is a square wave, and its the job of the power supply to convert the sine wave into a square wave. Ok I may be talking crap there, if somebody can tell me different I would welcome it.

All I know is that moving my CDP to a dfiferent shelve, building speakers stands, and using a cheap £10 distrubution block instead of my old £1 one have done wonders to my system. so a lot upgrades could probably be achieved for a lot less than the price of new kit if people look further than the HIFI magazines hype.

[technobear]

Originally posted by amazingtrade
As AC is a sine wave, the voltage is constantly changing, and I would imagine DC (though not sure about this) is a square wave, and its the job of the power supply to convert the sine wave into a square wave. Ok I may be talking crap there Yepp!

DC is not a square wave. In fact it is ideally not a wave at all. It is a constant voltage with no variations whatsoever. Hard to achieve in practice. Even DC voltage from a battery will be modulated to some extent by the load as it draws a varying amount of current.

Chris

[amazingtrade]

I'm half asleep today, I have just realised if it was a square wave it would switch itself on and off! I feel daft now.

[merlin]

Originally posted by michaelab
I think it's fair to say that Tone's replacement mains cables are just a tad more expensive than the Eupens :D (and I know what they are so nah-nah-na-nah-nah :banana: )

Michael.

Care to share that with us Michael?

I do hope he has gone the way of the snakes and fairy dust;)

[lowrider]

I also had harsh and thin sound towards late afternoon, just a pair of Van Den Hul Mainsstream on my DVd and AV cured that problem...

http://sapp.telepac.pt/lowrider/speaker.gif

[zanash]

Bottleneck......

I'll see you on saturday, nad see if we can dispell a few myths.

A lot though will depend on the state of the incoming mains, and the level of hash they carry.
If you've got relatively clean mains you ain't going to hear a deal !

On of the most intresting demos I did recently was at NAK's from the old place. He had a rotel pre power comb with living voice speakers. THe images were good but the sound was locked down between the speakers, added one mains cable to the CDP. The effect was like taking a magnifying glass and looking at the sound image. Every thing increased in scale, bigger and better images, wider soundstage, not louder in volume though. The differences were plain but not night and day.

[michaelab]

Originally posted by merlin
Care to share that with us Michael?

I do hope he has gone the way of the snakes and fairy dust;)
Well, I can't go betraying Tone's confidence now can I... :007:

But he hasn't gone the way of the Viper or Shunyata (or whatever they're called).

Michael.

[bottleneck]

Originally posted by zanash
Bottleneck......

I'll see you on saturday, nad see if we can dispell a few myths.

A lot though will depend on the state of the incoming mains, and the level of hash they carry.
If you've got relatively clean mains you ain't going to hear a deal !





Should be good fun mate. Im stocked up with pizza and crisps and alcohol and pop. One less bag of dorritos as we speak...munch munch munch....

Id like to be proved wrong, If I experience the differences others have for just changing power leads around I'll be a happy bunny! (its an improvement in my system, and they are always weclome).

Till then, I'll remain a non-convert with an open mind..

Interesting the feedback on ferrite rings. I wish we had some more scientists on here.

Ive said before - I can see no way in which they could do anything other than take away RFI, its just a lump of ferrite.... how could it effect anything else?

My pseudo science bullships theory, is that RFI high frequency hiss is heard as a detraction in treble when removed by a ferrite ring..

Never heard anyone say ferrite does anything other than remove RFI, so I admit Im fascinated by the removing dynamics thing. It would help me to know how this could happen (if its true) (genuine non-piss taking BTW)

Cheers everyone
Chris

[merlin]

May I quote from someone who should know, judging from the results:

"Many people believe in inductively filtering power with coils or ferrites. Inductors act as low-pass filters and work brilliantly at preventing HF noise from entering the system. As long as you believe in the power company as the Evil Empire, that approach will look appealing indeed. The fact remains that your components are the primary culprit. You see, in-line filters also prevent high-frequency noise from moving away from the component that generates it. Putting an inductor in series with your AC simply acts as a reflector. All the dreaded haze, blur and grain you wanted to get rid of remains in the system. In fact, it's now shared between the components in ping-pong fashion and hence multiplied.


Another fallacy is the belief that power is a low frequency phenomenon: 50 or 60 cycles. If that's what you believe, installing a low-pass filter is a good idea. It's an excellent approach as long as you power light bulbs or fans. Those appliances pull current across the full AC-power sine wave. However, electronic components pull power in high-frequency pulses, at the crest of the AC wave form. When the AC wave reaches a level in excess of the stored voltage in the power supply capacitors, the rectifier switches on. This drops the impedance of the power transformer windings to virtually zero causing an instantaneous and hard current pull that has very high frequency harmonics. The low-pass coil naturally resists the HF current change, limiting the amount of instantaneous current that can be delivered to the storage capacitors during that cycle. As the AC wave drops, the rectifier reverses and shuts off so you can't pull current until the wave form comes around again. So you wait for these 50-60 cycle time intervals to recharge the caps."

So the theory is that inductors are acting as a kind of rev limiter, thereby reducing perceived system dynamics.

I thank you

[bottleneck]

Originally posted by merlin
As long as you believe in the power company as the Evil Empire, that approach will look appealing indeed. The fact remains that your components are the primary culprit. You see, in-line filters also prevent high-frequency noise from moving away from the component that generates it.



Interesting that.

First time Ive heard that RFI is generated more BY the components than BY the mains supply. He seems to be suggesting that if the latter were to be the case, then ferrite rings would be an excellent idea.

Whats perplexing, is that the blurb of pretty much most mains kit manufacturers talks about RFI being generated from mains, not the component.

Somebody must be wrong!


Think I'll try taking them off when I get a bit of time, and have another play.



Chris

NB Merlin
Thanks for the info - who was the author?

[merlin]

Chris,

Its from a Q&A session with Caelin Gabriel, the founder of Shunyata Research and former "techy" for the NSA.

You will also find that this is the thinking behind he Isotek Substation, which uses Isolation transformers to decouple different components from one another.

All I can say is that it's difficult to argue with the results achieved by the products I have used that apply this thinking.

I thank you

[michaelab]

I believe there's something to that theory too. My Eupen cables are as much to filter grunge coming from components as going into them. One of the reasons I have one on every component, even my cheap DVD player.

It's also IMO why use of multiple Eupens (or similar) has a cumulative effect that's greater than the sum of the parts - if you see what I mean :)

BTW Merlin - it seems the cables I thought that Tone went for (now I can say it, Z-Squared AU/AU) are now not what he's decided to use! :banghead:

Michael.

[Chea Johndle]

CDP's and Transports are spraying RF all over the place.....clock circuitry works from about 11Mhz up to 45 Mhz and a couple of volts P-P.... this is then piped around the PCB by up to 500mm of track!!!! SEE the RF bathe the rest of the circuitry....with crud....WATCH as it radiates all over the rest of your equipment!!!

L8TER

JC

[dominicT]

Hi Guys

There is a very interesting article in this month's Sound on Sound magazine (pro-audio recording) that was sparked from a thread on the SOS forum that I linked to in Groovehandle. It is interesting reading and written by an 'expert' You will have to read the article in paper format as i do not think that you will be able to read it online without an e-subscription. I would have done a summary but have been far too busy, sorry. I think that he says some of it is rubbish and some of it will make some difference.

DominicT

[bottleneck]

Originally posted by bottleneck



Think I'll try taking them off when I get a bit of time, and have another play.



Well, taken them off.

About an hour of mucking with screw drivers did it.


The result?

An absolute DEFINATE increase in background noise, no question.

Also, more ethereal floaty open sound.



Sound like truth in both theories on the ferrite rings.

Im leaving them off for now, to see if the noise can be reduced in other ways with the bits and bobs people are bringing.

NB
Im getting a sneaky listen in to one of the WAD amps. hehehehe Wonder what people will think of them?

[timpy]

Michaelab wrote:

I think it's fair to say that Tone's replacement mains cables are just a tad more expensive than the Eupens (and I know what they are so nah-nah-na-nah-nah )

Ah-ha, if we're playing one upmanship, I know what they are (all of them) I know whence they came, and I've even had one of them in my system .......... on the DAC20 where it was responsible for a 25% increase in performance... (you can keep your DAC64s....;) )


So nah-nah-na-nah-nah *2 :p:p:p:p

:D:D:D:D

Cheers

[wadia-miester]

Originally posted by timpy
Michaelab wrote:



Ah-ha, if we're playing one upmanship, I know what they are (all of them) I know whence they came, and I've even had one of them in my system ..........

So nah-nah-na-nah-nah *2 :p:p:p:p

;)

Cheers

Yes Timpy had a taste of the 'real mans cable', even lowered the algorhythium a few decimal points too, said some thing about company perks too :D , for the life of me I don't know what he was on about ;) WM

[timpy]

Originally posted by wadia-miester
Yes Timpy had a taste of the 'real mans cable', even lowered the algorhythium a few decimal points too......

:JOEL:


Originally posted by wadia-miester
......said some thing about company perks too :D , for the life of me I don't know what he was on about ;) WM

You're a naughty boy Mr Wadia man.... ;)

:D:D

Cheers