They're coming to get us!!!

[MO!]

Seen this thread over on HFC HERE (http://forum.hifichoice.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=5876)

I'm a big fan of p2p software, but as I say on that thread it would be a somewhat blinkered aproach to deny it's obviously damaging the industry. I feel the way I use it benefits myself, in so much as i'm able to explore new artists freely, but in turn leads to me buying MOre albums!

My "to buy" list is bulging!

A few links off that thread.....

HERE (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/music/3021126.stm#graphic)

HERE (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/3022820.stm)

AND HERE (http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/06/24/1056220597879.html)

[sideshowbob]

They'll never take me alive.

Look at me ma, top of the world!

-- Ian

[technobear]

The music industry just can't get it's head around the fact that all those young people currently downloading MP3s from the net will one day tire of the lousy sound quality and will one day be able to afford to go out and buy the real thing. They will buy more CDs in the long run if they already know what they like.

I don't believe that downloading hurts music sales significantly. Those who can afford to buy music, do buy it. If all internet downloading were to somehow cease tomorrow, I do not believe that music sales would increase significanlty because the money just isn't there.

I see two major reasons for the long term decline of music sales.

1. A lot of modern music is crap and people are not buying it because it is crap.

2. Nowadays people have far more to spend their money on. When I was younger, we spent out money on cars, bikes, music and beer. Nowadays, there's video, DVDs, computer games, mobile phones, etc, etc. People don't magically have more money to spend on all this stuff. So naturally less gets spent on music.

The music industry needs to stop worrying about downloads and concentrate on making it easier for us to hear more music that we haven't yet heard. I for one would buy far more, if there were easier ways to audition stuff.

Chris

[timpy]

Agree 100%.

They seem to think that peoples resources are limitless, as opposed to just being spread ever more thinly over a wider area.

I too would buy more music, if I knew what it was I was buying.

Cheers

[PBirkett]

Originally posted by technobear
The music industry just can't get it's head around the fact that all those young people currently downloading MP3s from the net will one day tire of the lousy sound quality and will one day be able to afford to go out and buy the real thing. They will buy more CDs in the long run if they already know what they like.

I don't believe that downloading hurts music sales significantly. Those who can afford to buy music, do buy it. If all internet downloading were to somehow cease tomorrow, I do not believe that music sales would increase significanlty because the money just isn't there.

I see two major reasons for the long term decline of music sales.

1. A lot of modern music is crap and people are not buying it because it is crap.

2. Nowadays people have far more to spend their money on. When I was younger, we spent out money on cars, bikes, music and beer. Nowadays, there's video, DVDs, computer games, mobile phones, etc, etc. People don't magically have more money to spend on all this stuff. So naturally less gets spent on music.

The music industry needs to stop worrying about downloads and concentrate on making it easier for us to hear more music that we haven't yet heard. I for one would buy far more, if there were easier ways to audition stuff.

Chris

Obviously you know the crack as well. Thats exactly what I said on HFC.....

[MO!]

edited. ahem. nice weather we're having :D

[michaelab]

Edited in response. Yes - very nice weather indeed :D

Michael.

[ram]

Originally posted by timpy
Agree 100%.

They seem to think that peoples resources are limitless, as opposed to just being spread ever more thinly over a wider area.

I too would buy more music, if I knew what it was I was buying.

Cheers

Thats not true, 'They' only know too well that buying music has slipped down the priority list and is up against more competition these days. They spend a lot of money researching looking at buying trends of their various target audiences and markets.

Thats why they are so worried about mp3 downloads, because why spend your limited available cash on music when you can download it for free, buy the DVD and have both instead of one or the other.

I agree that easier auditioning would make me purchase more music. IMO retail outlets are missing a trick.

If you go into HMV flagship store on Oxford Street, London, you can listen to a few CDs but not many. In this day and age you should be able to listen to any one you like.

ram

[sideshowbob]

The music industry is a marketplace, like any other, and it has to convince its consumers to spend their money on CDs rather than something else.

Contemporary western societies are atomised and alienated, stardom and quick-fix consumption are valued more highly than musical merit and intelligence, and popular music is now almost entirely aimed at 7 year olds. So, the music industry can't by definition offer quality. Mainstream pop music, the stuff that really makes the money, is unadulterated rubbish on the whole, and appeals to nobody apart from the very young, who have limited spending power. Music has become purely a product. (This has been happening for a long time, sure, but the movie-soft drink-fast food-video game-pop song nexus is new in its extent.)

Stuff the music industry if this sorry product doesn't appeal to enough people for them to shell out for it. If the entire music industry disappears, music will still happen, and musicians may start to get back some control of their output, and start to get paid. I hope BMG/Sony/AOL/all the other mega corporations, who have sucked the soul out of contemporary popular culture whilst simultaneously fleecing musicians, are suffering. They deserve it.

-- Ian

[LiloLee]

Grrrr...Tiger:D

Well said Ian (even though there were too many long words for me :confused: )

[lAmBoY]

Originally posted by sideshowbob
The music industry is a marketplace, like any other, and it has to convince its consumers to spend their money on CDs rather than something else.

Contemporary western societies are atomised and alienated, stardom and quick-fix consumption are valued more highly than musical merit and intelligence, and popular music is now almost entirely aimed at 7 year olds. So, the music industry can't by definition offer quality. Mainstream pop music, the stuff that really makes the money, is unadulterated rubbish on the whole, and appeals to nobody apart from the very young, who have limited spending power. Music has become purely a product. (This has been happening for a long time, sure, but the movie-soft drink-fast food-video game-pop song nexus is new in its extent.)

Stuff the music industry if this sorry product doesn't appeal to enough people for them to shell out for it. If the entire music industry disappears, music will still happen, and musicians may start to get back some control of their output, and start to get paid. I hope BMG/Sony/AOL/all the other mega corporations, who have sucked the soul out of contemporary popular culture whilst simultaneously fleecing musicians, are suffering. They deserve it.

-- Ian


Ditto - eloquently put sir.

IMO downloading mp3's is theft. Theft is immoral. People who download "to try before you buy" will be the protagonists of their industries demise. With less and less being invested and offered by the music bigwigs (t0ssers all of em) the music will be continuously more targeted at the kids --- these are people who consume, they need to OWN the single or CD, they are the pressure behind the parents spending. One example is that abusive song about 'macdonalds/kentucky fried chicken and a pizza hut' - Is this what the downloaders want more of????? I hope not.

The music industry can save itself. Reduce the cost of CDs. Remove the overhead (IIRC 85% of the cost of the CD) and sell direct to the consumer. This may be by download or mail order.

[davidcotton]

I download mp3's to try. If I like the couple that I have heard then fine I'll delete the mp3s (unless using them in a game) and then go out and buy cds.

If there were more variety being played on the airwaves rather than the bland, limited 3 minute one hit wonders maybe the sales of cds would go up.

[timpy]

Ian, Fantastic sir, and so very very true.

It it a situation that they have largely caused for themselves in the pursuit of trying to extract money from those who are easily led / don't know any better. If we ever have a tangle with the music industry, I think that we'll have to make you our spokes-person.

IMO though, it's not just the music inductry's fault, as davidcotton says, how much radio is also aimed at these indoctrinated sheep.

Cheers

[Dev]

Ian, very well put.

TB, I agree with most of your points particularly about the amount of crap on sale and on the air as DC mentioned, but in my view downloading mp3s is still theft. It does not matter whether it hurts music sales or not.

As I wrote on HFC there are a lot a other industries that enjoy large markups such as cosmetics, designer wear, drugs (no, not those sorts:) ) but would you steal their products just because they are overpriced?

If anyone here owned a music catalogue, would he/she not like to maximise their profits? :duck: Thank you Michael for this smily
:D

[Lt Cdr Data]

as we well know, the music industry as well as every industry has been legally robbing us poor consumers soft for years...
so in a way its getting its come-uppance...if it didn't rip us off, we wouldn't be so keen on downloading stuff for free, and no wonder its running scared, as it will be making a whole in their exorbitant profits...more power to the consumer...
plus there is so much great music out there, really obscure stuff that you never hear on the radio stations, who play the flavour of the moment a few thousand times to many...I for one wish it was more about music (and decent tele programs) than just the populist stuff...

[wolfgang]

It is so comforting to see some people are willing to see the other side of the argument here. It is like talking to a brick wall over there at HFCF. :(

I think Lawrie is trying to keep the debate alive and interesting.

[MO!]

Welcome wolfgang :D

To only see one side of the argument would be naive. And as a "fan" of p2p that doesn't mean that i'm blind to the fact that many will obviously just completely abuse it. Can you blame them though?

As I've said, I use it as a means, with ends being to purchase an album that I'm confident I will like! But no doubt to many the downloaded mp3 is there "ends" which is where the problems come in.

Prices need to be dropped!

[technobear]

Originally posted by Dev
in my view downloading mp3s is still theft. It does not matter whether it hurts music sales or not. I agree that to download music and play it and keep on playing it with no intention of buying it does constitute theft. However, I do not think that downloading music to see what it sounds like and then deleting it should count as theft. It's more of a demo (regardless of where it came from). After all, how many other products can you think of where you have no idea what you are buying until you've paid for it and taken it home! I can't think of any.

The music industry is barking mad and now that we no longer even have decent radio (I've given up radio listening altogether as it is so crap), it's harder than ever to hear new music. Perhaps we need more bake-offs with less emphasis on cables and mains conditioners and more emphasis on the music.

Chris

[Robbo]

Perhaps we need more bake-offs with less emphasis on cables and mains conditioners and more emphasis on the music.

Sounds good to me. So when is the bake off at Technobear towers? I am looking forward to hearing those Castles:D

Robbo

[technobear]

Originally posted by Robbo
Sounds good to me. So when is the bake off at Technobear towers? I am looking forward to hearing those Castles:D I have to finish the patio first. Ordered the slabs this morning. Should be all done by the end of July.

Chris

[Robbo]

Is it me, or have you been doing the patio for ages;) You must be almost as bad as me when it comes to getting round to doing diy!

Robbo

[technobear]

Originally posted by Robbo
Is it me, or have you been doing this patio for ages;) Well there are three stages to this patio. There are two paths as well. Stage 1 is complete. Stage 2 is well underway. Stage 3 is a twinkle in my eye ;) Quality takes time.

Chris

[Dev]

Originally posted by technobear
I agree that to download music and play it and keep on playing it with no intention of buying it does constitute theft. However, I do not think that downloading music to see what it sounds like and then deleting it should count as theft. It's more of a demo (regardless of where it came from). After all, how many other products can you think of where you have no idea what you are buying until you've paid for it and taken it home! I can't think of any.

The music industry is barking mad and now that we no longer even have decent radio (I've given up radio listening altogether as it is so crap), it's harder than ever to hear new music. Perhaps we need more bake-offs with less emphasis on cables and mains conditioners and more emphasis on the music.

Chris

No arguments here from me Chris, I was referring to simply downloading with no intention of buying.

Edited to add:-

I'm not sure of the crap radio idea. I agree most of what is broadcast IS crap but is their fault or is it what their biggest audience (teenagers?) want. Here in London we seem to have a fairly wide choice from stations that cater for Jazz, easy listening or latest hits etc and IIRC Capital FM recently admitted that perhaps they are starting to lose their way by concentrating too much on the chart hits and not catering for a wider audience, so they obviously realise all is not well;) .

I'm not sure what the answer is, but could it be that just like the record industry they are trying to come up with new tunes that will attract listeners but we as customers have perhaps diversified our tastes too much? Perhaps there isn't much room for creativity in the music industry because all good ideas have already been explored or should I say milked/recycled?

[timpy]

Originally posted by ram
Thats not true, 'They' only know too well that buying music has slipped down the priority list and is up against more competition these days. They spend a lot of money researching looking at buying trends of their various target audiences and markets.


Are you sure? I get the distinct impression that because I'm not a pre-pubescent girl, that they're simply not interested in whether I buy music or not. They certainly aren't trying to sell me any.

They are hardly bombarding us with new talent, merely recycling stuff (tat much of it) for a new unsuspecting generation who's love of fashion is greater than their love of music. Who cares whether the music is any good so long as they can sell the "product". The music industry has embraced this situation with open arms and is making a killing, in the end though, they will sign their own death warrant. No one will take them seriously, and why should they. Unfortunately there are too few record labels left that aren't affiliated with one of the main ones. Some of the sub-divisions still have some credibility though.

Cheers

[technobear]

The radio question is a difficult one. I spent a fair chunk of last year in the States and the same thing is happening over there. You still get a wide diversity of radio stations playing different styles of music, BUT even on those, you still hear the same popuplar tracks over and over. They rarely venture into anything you might not have heard before.

I used to like Kiss FM when I lived near London. Can't get it here so for dance music it's Friday and Saturday evenings on Radio 1 or Galaxy (Vibe?). These shows aren't too bad and I do get to hear new stuff.

Apart from those shows, Radio 1 seems to be wall-to-wall dross whenever I tune in. Radio 2 is a bit better in that the DJs are not so inane but I still don't get to hear anything other than greatest hits.

I hardly ever get to hear rock on the radio. I really miss Tommy Vance and Fluff Freeman. Those shows were good. They introduced me to a lot of great music. I used to tape it and then try and track down the CDs. Success rate wasn't very high. Still isn't. Why does the music industry make it so hard to buy the music you want?

Chris

[technobear]

Radio is goping to die anyway. Our beloved FM system is being replaced with something that has worse sound quality than the worst MP3. The technology is capable of near CD levels of performance. Sadly the broadcasters have gone for quantity rather than quality. They believe that we want more dross and never mind what it sounds like. Perhaps they are right that it doesn't matter what it sounds like as most people won't want to listen to it for long anyway and will simply switch off.

Chris