Arcam - image problem?

[michaelab]

I'm starting to build a mental shortlist for options to upgrade my CD source (currently Marantz CD50SE with Trichord DOB + Tag DAC20).

One thing struck me though when flicking through the latest HFC with it's review of the new Arcam CD33: it's, well....just too ordinary :eek: Without listening to any of them, the 3 "also consider" players they listed (Copland CDA822, Meridian 507 and Primare D30.2) all seemed like much more attractive propositions. If I'm going to spend £1300+ on a CDP then, somehow, I feel like I'd want something a bit more "special" than an Arcam.

Don't get me wrong, I really like Arcam stuff (I have an FMJ A22 amp and love it, especially for the £580 I paid for it!) but I think they may have an image/credibilty problem at the highest end of their range. It's rather like paying £25k for a fully loaded Mondeo when that money would get you a nice BMW/Audi/Mercedes etc.

IMO this problem affects all HiFi brands that play at the budget end of the market aswell as the bottom end of high end (eg Marantz/NAD and similar).

Comments??

Michael.

PS: The Arcam CD33 is not on my shortlist :) (don't think it would be a big enough step up).

[sideshowbob]

Michael, you're a snob!

-- Ian

PS. You're absolutely correct too :cool:

[cookiemonster]

Entirely agree.

a perfect example IMO, is the Rotel RCD991 spinner which i employ. £825 RRP, top of the Rotel range - built like a tank for the price and in comparison to the competition, and sunk into oblivion - an explanation which i have been offered before and which i agree with, is that anybody spending <£1000 on a cdp will automatically discount the more 'mid-fi' brands and audition more 'esoteric' gear, as Michael illustrates above.

My NAD certainly has an image problem:D

[bottleneck]

Hi Michael.

Duno if you buy imports into portugal - but I saw the primare 30.2 .. on your shortlist there.. at emporium for 850 notes.


Cheers
Chris

NB
He quoted me 25-100 for the cost of changing voltages if you need to go to 110v or whatever... (priced for something else entirely, but Im sure the cost'd be similar).

[technobear]

The problem here I feel is that you are not comparing like with like. Arcam has spent the money where it counts - in sound quality - rather than in fancy packaging.
In terms of performance the CD33T will stand favourable comparison with anything up to twice it's price (as did the Alpha 9 in years gone by).
As for the packaging, it may look a bit ordinary but in fact Arcam has put quite a bit of work in to ensure that the casework enhances the performance with use of special damped materials, etc.
They've done a thoroughly workman like job IMHO and I'm looking forward to auditioning this new machine.

Chris

[Dev]

I have an Arcam Alpha 9CDP, bought despite all the criticism in the press for cheap grey front and for not looking like an £800 player. I thought what matters most is the sound rather than looks or image. Now, I'm not so sure. I'd still audition whatever I could at my budget price and go for the best sounding one but perhaps would think about image as well for anything costing a 4 figure sum.

Am I becoming a snob?:eek: , I hope not.

[michaelab]

I saw the primare 30.2 .. on your shortlist there
Thanks Chris (bottleneck), but that was just the "also consider" list that HFC had for the CD33. I haven't really yet got a shortlist - was about to start another thread about that :)

Chris (technobear) - I agree with you and I'm sure that the CD33 is an outstanding player at its price and somewhat above. I will try to listen to one just for interest and comparison. I wasn't dissing Arcam's products, it's just that, at the £1K+ price level IMO most people (including me) would rather buy something more exotic - a genuine high end brand if you like. Even though the Meridian 507 is £100 cheaper it has way more street cred (and it's a pretty decent CDP for the money too!).

Of course the sensible thing is to buy the CDP who's sound you most like in your budget and to hell with its image...but if we were all that sensible hifi would just come in plain aluminium boxes with plastic knobs :)

Michael.

[Mr_Sukebe]

Well the right thing to do is to go listen to all the ones that might interest you.

I think that the Mondeo is an interesting analogy and would probably influence my decision making too.
The point being that everyone knows that the the Arcam 92 is just a 72 with improve electronics.
To me that would suggest that for their "economies of scale" they believe it's better to use cheapy transports and focus the rest of the their spend on the electronics.

My own view would be that if you're buying say a Meridian, that they would cut corners on their mid prices CDP, but still have a lot of the same core technology. So in comparison to a sooped up mondeo, you're getting a low spec 5 series without electric windows.

In addition, I would also suggest that manufacturers have an in-house "sound" which most of their gear tends to follow. Getting onto say the Meridian ladder in most probably a more rewarding result than just improving on the existing Arcam sound.

[Robbo]

Like Mr sukebe said, the more upmarket you get, the more manufacturers tend to have a distinctive house sound. If you can find a house sound that matches your criteria, then you are well on the way to sonic happiness.


Robbo

[julian2002]

arcam to my ears have a very 'safe' sound which has carried through to their higher end players. i listened to a cd 72 and a cd 92 a while ago and there was a definate cozyness about both players (through arcam;s amps too). this is fine if you listen to a lot of live 70's rawk or velvet underground on cd :D.
i'll also agree that they have a certain amount of 'image problem' once they get over 1000 ukp however i'm sure that there are a lot of people out there who love the arcam sound and want more of it and are prepared to pay the price, certainly arcam doesn;t seem to be hurting.
cheers


julian

[Jackthebiscuit]

People see you when you're driving, so I can understand why for some people there's an image issue, but ask yourself why you possess a hifi. It's so you can listen to music. If you're that worried about the badge on the front, buy a rack with doors on so you can close them when people come round.:rolleyes:

[timpy]

Personally whether we think that Arcam have an image problem or not is neither here nor there.

Because we all know that products should be judged on their merits (unless they were hideously unreliable or something which they aren't) and anyone who worries and is put off by any potential image issues of the kit they buy, deserves to flounder around hopelessly on the audiophool path for evermore. :JOEL:

All IMHO of course. :D

Cheers

[MO!]

Originally posted by Jackthebiscuit
People see you when you're driving, so I can understand why for some people there's an image issue, but ask yourself why you possess a hifi. It's so you can listen to music. If you're that worried about the badge on the front, buy a rack with doors on so you can close them when people come round.:rolleyes:

HERE HERE!!!

If it's tube shape happens to have a brushed aluminium front and a rather attractive blue LED, well, that's just a bonus!

[Dev]

I think part of the image problem results from how often certain manufacturers bring out new models. Meridian, Copland and Primare that Michael mentioned do not update their models as regularly as Arcam, Marantz, Denon, Pioneer etc. Also a lot of them such as Meridian and TAG McLaren offer firmware updates which greatly extend the life of their products, protecting their customers investment. So although they are expensive you are likely to keep them longer which helps to build up the image. So it's not all snobbery.

Or am I talking bollox here?

[timpy]

I know what you're driving at Dev, but Arcam only really cycle their range every 3-4 years, and they usually bring in increased or enhance functionality. The Alpha 10, DiVA A85 and FMJ amps all have massive scope for adaptiontion into mulitroom / AV as well.

In contrast, TAG haven't done much with their stock Hi-Fi range since they launched it, except bring it back down in price to where it should be IMO (where it was when it was Audiolab even). Even then it wasn't genuinely new stuff, and 6 years down the line it is looking a bit long in the tooth. This product longivity dosn't help the image in this case I don't think.


Cheers

[julian2002]

dev,
i notice that mf are conspicuously absent from either of your lists. ;)
cheers


julian

[wadia-miester]

I wil say this for Arcam, the performance of the A32/P35 is pretty damn good considering it has Arcam written on it ;)
Although the CD23 was disappointing, it is more musical than the Cd33, though not as smooth.
Image is a problem that effects a wide varity of manufactures and subjects, I also feel that some producers deliberately 'manipulate' their marketing to 'accquire' a desired image. WM

[lowrider]

Why should TAG bother with their stereo products when most people are buying AV... :rolleyes:

And, believe me, they have upgraded a lot their range, more then most, including new powers... :MILD:

[Dev]

Originally posted by julian2002
dev,
i notice that mf are conspicuously absent from either of your lists. ;)
cheers


julian

I didn't want to offend anyone:D

[wadia-miester]

Originally posted by Dev
I didn't want to offend anyone:D

Dev, Too late now mate :) or was it ownership was offence enough :NADowner:

[wadia-miester]

Sorry Dev, couldn't resist :funny:

[Dev]

Tim,

I agree with you regarding TAG McLaren for stereo products. I was referring to their recent AV products which in theory you can keep for years.

Also TAG McLaren AV products are arguably very good for stereo so can be considered as an integrated AV/Stereo solution (even if they are not cheap!). So a good question by Lowrider. My guess is that they are not spending much to develop stereo any further but are maximising their income from their (Audiolab?) products. Also mayby it's because they need lower priced products to "hook" customers who may later by more expensive AV products.

[timpy]

Originally posted by lowrider
Why should TAG bother with their stereo products when most people are buying AV... :rolleyes:

And, believe me, they have upgraded a lot their range, more then most, including new powers... :MILD:

Lowrider

They have new products? Considering the retreat they seem to have beaten from most dealer outlets in this country, it would be hard pressed to tell!! :rolleyes:

As for not bothering with stereo products, it would be foolish indeed to abondon your "bread and butter" product lines in favour of the new "fashion".

Cheers

[Dev]

Originally posted by wadia-miester
Dev, Too late now mate :) or was it ownership was offence enough :NADowner:

I am wounded :cry:

But seriously, I don't like or dislike ALL MF products. I think they have made and still make some excellent products but balance it by making some crap products just like any other maker. I think one should be objective about these things and not tarnish the whole make just because of personal bias. After all, HiFi is all about personal preferences.

[Dev]

Tim,

To answer the question under your name, I have them, yours for a very reasonable price:D

In case you've forgotten what they look like (as if!), they're pictured on the left;)

[lowrider]

I think they are more into croissants... ;)

Why should they bother with stereo when lots of stereo people are getting into AV, and the new customers, with enough money, are only buying AV... :confused:

We know their bread and butter product is the AV32R, most other products come afterwards, and they have managed to keep it ahead of the competition, just listen to the dual processor, you will be amazed with its stereo playing, and then you have TMREQ to tame those non dedicated rooms most of us live with... :MILD:

[wadia-miester]

Dev, to be fair mate, those XA 200 mono's arnt bad (I did hear a pair the other day, not too shabby either, better IMHO than the Nu-vista stuff (for music anyway) the Dac is ok 3.24 , I had one for a few months, no inoffensive and quite alive too, but it does require a good cable though :D
And I have to say, the service is second to none, they turned around my dac fault in 48 hours, pretty fair in anyones book. WM

[timpy]

Originally posted by Dev
Tim,

To answer the question under your name, I have them, yours for a very reasonable price:D

In case you've forgotten what they look like (as if!), they're pictured on the left;)

Dev my friend, you're a bad boy... ;)

But they do look lovely :p