An open post to the forum's Naim representatives

[merlin]

Now, one of my new year resolutions was not to knock Naim just for the sake of it. I intend to stick to that.

What I would like to know is whay is there such absolutism when it comes to many Naim users, where anyone failing to tow the company line is ridiculed at the first opportunity? I have nothing against Naim's products, they are not for me (sonically speaking), but the closed vision of many of it's devotees grates.

Certain members would have you believe that the ultimate upgrade is always made in Salisbury. Why? I understand that Naim has a loyal user base here in the UK, built up by various means and some historical merit by the company, but the comments by the likes of Mr Parry cannot be borne out in the real world.

As an example, let me refer to the US market, undoubtedly the largest market for quality hifi on the planet. Now for year 2002/2003, Naim increased it's turnover in said marketplace, from £749,000 to £917,000 - a reasonable increase.

However, to put that into perspective, if we estimate the average unit cost to be £1500, then the above equates to approximatly 600 units or 50 per month. Now given the fact that the mainland of the US has more than 50 States, most of which are larger than the UK, that means that each of these States is selling just one Naim component per month at best.

Given the choice of equipment available Stateside, and the purchasing power/enthusiasm of the populace, why would the purveyors of the finest hifi in the world be unable to sell to a wider audience, particularly given that their marketing spend over there is not inconsiderable?

For the open minded, we would have to assume that, whilst Naim undoubtedly has it's place in the hifi world, it is not the universal solution that some would have us believe. My mind is drawn back to Stereophile's report from Home entertainment 2002. IIRC, he enjoyed the performance of the Naim setup, which comprised CDS2/XPS, 552, 500 and Dynaudio C4 (good shout, Dyn's work well with Naim to my ears). Total system price was $60K. In the next paragraph he listened to the same track through another system, Sim Eclipse, P5, W5, Merlin VSM (total cost $25K). His verdict as i recall was that it was every bit the equal in terms of quality and accuracy, the Naim setup merely sounding bigger than the homegrown alternative, no doubt due to the massive Dyns (I can concurr, they sound huge!!)

So it would seem that in the US, Naim fails to give the "most bang for your Buck", hence the low market penetration.

So I am not knocking Naim, just trying to explain why I get so annoyed when certain members make the kit out to be unparalelled on ZG. I have no doubt that, if it were as good as some say, the world would be a happier place. But in the meantime, do give credance to those of us who have found alternatives that we consider to both sound better and offer substantially better value for money.

[adam]

Linn and naim are just a brit thing,like the people who every four years tell you "this time well get it right,and win the world cup",just small fish in a big pond,thier very very rarely mentioned here,and its not that far away,my local dealer has had a cd 3.5? on his shelf along with a pre power for well over a year,so to me it's just a brit thingy.

[TonyL]

What I would like to know is why is there such absolutism when it comes to many Naim users, where anyone failing to tow the company line is ridiculed at the first opportunity?

I think its unfair to brand the whole company due to a couple of posters who are real fanatics. There are a great many people who like Naim kit, but are in no way fundamentalist about it. I refer to this as ‘the Mana factor’, i.e. a tiny minority of incredibly vocal fanatics gave the brand such a bad name online that it reflects negatively on the many perfectly reasonable people who use it. Once someone supports a audio manufacturer like they would a football team any semblance of credibility has long since left the picture.

I deliberately stayed out of the recent turntable thread here as it was degenerating into yet another anti-Linn hate rant from a minority of (IMHO remarkably uninformed) posters. There is only a certain number of times it is possible to repeat the same argument…

Tony.

[merlin]

Thanks Tony, and I agree it is only a small proportion. Sadly they are highly vociferous, which in my opinion reflects poorly on the company concerned. If anything these evangelists to more harm than good, managing to create anti Naimees like myself.

FWIW, I believe Naim are shipping about 90 units a moth across the entire European continent, so I guess Adam is right that it's a particularly British phenomenon.

[mick parry]

I suspect you are whinging about me.

To kick off, I am not a Naim nut.

I have Naim black boxes

I have Linn speakers not Naim

Those speakers are mounted on Mana racks

I use Hutter racking not Naim

I use a Loricraft PSU not Naim for the TT

Also I cannot really recall discussing Naim recently but I have contributed a few postings advocating Loricraft's Garrard 501. So where is the Naim mania.

Regards

Mick

[sideshowbob]

Merlin, relax. It really doesn't matter.

-- Ian

[merlin]

Ian,

I agree and can assure you that I am writing this whilst listening to great music, well Lee Scratch Perry actually!

I just want some sense of balance. Afterall, if the rest of the world chooses to buy an alternative, then maybe, just maybe, there is other products out there worth listening to.

[dat19]

Originally posted by merlin

So it would seem that in the US, Naim fails to give the "most bang for your Buck", hence the low market penetration.


I think naim struggle in the US for a collection of reasons:

if you got the cash to throw down on a top naim system, then you probably have a big room. DBL's are big and rather ugly, and with the space available boundary placement is neither a priority nor a necessity.

While other speakers are available, they are rather demanding of naim's limp-wristed amps (the NAP500 is insanely expensive and can only be described as modest in its power output).

naim's pre-amps "condition" the signal for their power-amps, so partnering a naim pre with a bryston is a non-stater, and naim perpetuate the magical synergy of their pre/power combo.

Next, we have their sources. Now the CDS2 isn't a bad player (it's the only piece of naim kit I own). But it's a pain in the ass to setup: if you beleive the naim forum, you need fraim, fancy din-to-phono's (Chord isn't good enough) and special mains arrangements (see the endless spur bullshit on the naim forum). A conservative estimate is you need another $5K of tweaks to make "optimize the performance" of your $12K CD player.

Coming back to mains, we might conclude from the logic of spurs that equipment designed for 240v/50Hz cannot perform "optimally" on 110v/60Hz :)

naim have the fondness for the "puck" which is a nuisance to say the least - who want's that hassle? Also because of "microphony" (ho ho ho), the CDS2 has a suspended sub-chassis which makes moving the damn thing even a few feet something of a gamble with a big repair bill.

In conclusion, it all goes wrong starting with the speakers, the amps are too weedy, and the front end too finicky.

I should offer a special mention to the din connectors, which for all of their (claimed) technical merit cause a lot of interconnection headaches. While naim have put phono's on the CDS3, the folklore is that the DIN sounds better, so there's really been no progress.

In the 80's I liked naim a lot: I thought they were a serious no bullshit outfit, who knocked out a decent amp 32.5/Hicap/250 for a reasonable sum of money (compared to the US behmoth's). The interconnect and speaker cables they offered were sensibly priced and worked well.

In the "new millenium", naim have lost the plot: their flagship pre/power combo is insanely expensive (and somewhat underpowered). They themselves are indulging in the worst kind of bullshit - fraim appears to be engineered to make mana look sane :) And their cables can be quite pricey - $500 for a "burndy" power interconnect.

naim should get out of the hifi business and focus on their core competancy: Power Supplies.

[Mr_Sukebe]

Originally posted by merlin
What I would like to know is whay is there such absolutism when it comes to many Naim users, where anyone failing to tow the company line is ridiculed at the first opportunity?

I have nothing against Naim's products, they are not for me (sonically speaking), but the closed vision of many of it's devotees grates.

So I am not knocking Naim, just trying to explain why I get so annoyed when certain members make the kit out to be unparalelled on ZG. I have no doubt that, if it were as good as some say, the world would be a happier place. But in the meantime, do give credance to those of us who have found alternatives that we consider to both sound better and offer substantially better value for money.

Michael,

Interesting post, to which I would be honoured to reply as a Naim/Linn owner.

To respond to your key statements and questions:
1. I don't seem to EVER remember ridiculing anyone else's kit on this forum, but if I have, please give me a link and I'll apologise

2. Clearly I prefer the Naim solution or I wouldn't have bought it, it's hardly as though I've not listened to other gear. But then in your own thread you state that choice of kit is a question of personal preference, so I'm assuming that I'm allowed to have a preference to.

3. I most certainly have NOT stated that Naim makes the best kit out there. I have on a number of occasions slated Naim speakers, not only here but also on the Naim forums too.
In addition, I seem to remember stating several times that the best CD based system I've heard was actually WMs, with NO Naim gear in sight.


So overall, I feel that you are unfairly branding Naimess within your statement about "ridiculing others who do not tow the Naim line" as your statement was not aimed as "some" Naimees, but clearly at ALL Naimees.

So I would like to make my statement in a little more direct in saying that the most closed minded post within this thread is actually from yourself.

And NO I will NOT accept an attempt at rewording your reply to say that "well maybe not all Naimees are that bad". Frankly I think your statement is just as out of order and as unreasonable as some of the more vehement amongst not only the Naim fraternity, but also within other "brand conscious fanatics".

Can I please ask that you either refrain from your outbursts or at least in future be more even in your criticism of not only Naimess, but also Linneees, MFeess etc etc.

[merlin]

Originally posted by Mr_Sukebe
Michael,
Can I please ask that you either refrain from your outbursts or at least in future be more even in your criticism of not only Naimess, but also Linneees, MFeess etc etc.

Now to call my post "an outburst" Mike, just really demonstrates to me exactly my point, which is sad

What I would like to know is whay is there such absolutism when it comes to many Naim users.

Certain members would have you believe that the ultimate upgrade is always made in Salisbury.

Now surely the words "many" and "certain" indicate that I am not tarring all Naim users with the same brush don't they?

With your sensitive feelings in mind, I will in future limit my critisism to any form of absolutism, it's just that one look at the Naim forum will tell you that is where fundamentalism grew up.

Over the years I have come to think of Naim as a UK version of Mcintosh. Both share a loyal base and excellent reputation established through good customer service and relations and exceptional biuld quality. They are institutions, admittedly Naim are only in here the UK.

What most people accept about McIntosh is that, on sonic grounds, you can usually find better for less. I just wish CERTAIN members would think the same way about Salisbury's product, insytead of perpetuating the myth.

[Tom Alves]

May as well wade in.

Most people are aware that there is more than one brand of hi-fi and most are aware that quite a lot of it is actually good even if it's not their taste. Me, I've grown up with Naim, I like what it does, a lot, and I'm too lazy (i.e. not into hi-fi enough) to worry if I should have bought something else.

But, and this is the big but, I might just get a litlle defensive when everytime Naim or Salisbury or "a company in the SouthEast" is mentioned someone somewhere (again usually a vociferous minority) will take pot shots as to poor performance, underhand selling practices, crap sound or poor sales or the paper specs aren't as exciting as other brands or whatever has upset them recently.

Now it could be a vicious circle. We defend Naim anticipating attack, you attack Naim because of overly sensitive owners etc etc ad nauseam. The only strange thing is that it does seem to be an anti Naim thing. There isn't the vitriol hurled at Arcam or Tact or Dynavector, it just seems to be a knee jerk reaction when Naim is mentioned.

And one final point Merlin, you've posted quite a bit about Naims finances. What's the fascination, what have you got to prove. If you don't like the kit fine but do you need to prove that your ears are right by proving the company sucks.

Too late, too hungover and tired so sorry if this is overly grouchy. Personnaly I prefer to be here than Pinkfish because it is a nice balance with the Naim forum but I don't want to be continually wary because I have "the wrong "kit.

[michaelab]

merlin, I hear what you say but I think you're making a bit of a mountain out of a molehill at the moment. AFAICR there hasn't really been any Naim "fundamentalism" in evidence here recently.

Mick was being fairly absolutist about his Garrard 501, but that's not Naim.

Also, I notice that you always manage to get in a plug for SimAudio (your kit) whenever you're having a go at Naim ;)

Michael.

[Mr_Sukebe]

Originally posted by merlin
What most people accept about McIntosh is that, on sonic grounds, you can usually find better for less. I just wish CERTAIN members would think the same way about Salisbury's product, insytead of perpetuating the myth.

I can't help but think that on one hand you're happy to criticse absolutism, and then promptly make a lovely sweeping statement about "usually find better for less".

I can happily assure you that the reason for chosing the kit I have is exactly because I listened to a number of competitors and most certainly didn't find better for less, IN MY OPINION.

If someone else loves Cyrus, Arcam, Sim or whatever it maybe, then good on then. I have no issue with others prefering a different style of presentation to my own tastes, but I would prefer it if people like yourself would cease to tell me that I'm wrong to like what I like.

[TonyL]

What most people accept about McIntosh is that, on sonic grounds, you can usually find better for less. I just wish CERTAIN members would think the same way about Salisbury's product, insytead of perpetuating the myth.

A lot depends on how you calculate the cost of ownership of a audio component. If you walk into a store and walk out with the current brand new expensive flavour of the month product as seen on the cover of your favourite hi-fi mag the chances are you will be burning a hell of a lot of money in a pretty short amount of time. Once the company in question has gone bust (sadly a great many many do) the item will be worth a fraction of its original cost, at best 20-30%. A established company like Naim or McIntosh will give a far better return as the resale will be far higher, thus a far cheaper total cost of ownership.

Many people like myself do things totally differently again; I will never buy new unless I absolutely have to, and I buy very carefully. I have owned many, many second hand Naim amps over the years plus many LP12s etc, all of which made me a decent profit when I sold them. To judge performance purely on new price tags is IMHO pretty naïve, there are far better ways to buy audio equipment - I now actually have a totally free audio system due to this buying strategy, the current kit cost me less than the profit made by selling previous kit on.

Personnaly I prefer to be here than Pinkfish because it is a nice balance with the Naim forum but I don't want to be continually wary because I have "the wrong "kit.

I like it here because I don't have to moderate the damn thing!

Tony.

[merlin]

Originally posted by Tom Alves
And one final point Merlin, you've posted quite a bit about Naims finances. What's the fascination, what have you got to prove. If you don't like the kit fine but do you need to prove that your ears are right by proving the company sucks.



Hi Tom,

The purpose of posting the financials was merely to highlight the lack of penetration in overseas markets, as it is perhaps mistakenly thought that Naim competes with the global heavyweights. I am not suggesting the company sucks, it is a highly profitable outfit and as a business is successful.


Also, I notice that you always manage to get in a plug for SimAudio (your kit) whenever you're having a go at Naim

;) ;) :D :D Why not seeing as every mention of them on PF by Robbo was greeted with the usual distain. Quality kit, no better or worse than a number of competitors, but all those who have heard it seem to like it. Still time to move on.......

[michaelab]

Originally posted by Tom Alves
but I don't want to be continually wary because I have "the wrong "kit.
No one here has "the wrong kit". It's unfortunate that some people's efforts have possibly given this place an anti-Naim reputation - if it's true it would be a shame.

I would argue that the "anti-Naimees" are often as fundamentalist in their knocking of Naim as the Naimees are in their support for it. Why Naim attracts that attention where other brands expensive brands don't I don't know.

Michael.

[mick parry]

I am visiting Robbo this coming saturday to listen to his system. I am taking the wife and if his system sounds better than mine, I will flog it and buy one like his.

So we are all open minded.

What I will say is that to date, I have yet to come across anything that compares to Naim. But that is my opinion and it is down to me how I spend my money.

Regards

Mick

[mick parry]

For what it is worth, I do not regard this forum as anti anything.

Everyone has their preferences and these are always subjective. I like the Naim sound but cannot explain why, I just like it. I don't expect everyone to like it, so as long as we all accept that, there should be no problem.

Regards

Mick

[merlin]

Originally posted by TonyL
I will never buy new unless I absolutely have to, and I buy very carefully. I have owned many, many second hand Naim amps over the years plus many LP12s etc, all of which made me a decent profit when I sold them. To judge performance purely on new price tags is IMHO pretty naïve, there are far better ways to buy audio equipment - I now actually have a totally free audio system due to this buying strategy, the current kit cost me less than the profit made by selling previous kit on.
Tony.

Tony, we share a similar buying philosophy these days:) But I must say the used prices on Naim gear in the UK shocks me sometimes. Again, in the US yesterday, a five year old NAP250 went for less than £300, so again, this appears to be a strangely British thing.

[merlin]

Originally posted by michaelab
Why Naim attracts that attention where other brands expensive brands don't I don't know.

Michael.

Michael, I have my own ideas but I hope this thread has not come across as Naim bashing as I have given that up.

I like the Naim sound but cannot explain why, I just like it. I don't expect everyone to like it,

Mick, that's exactly how I feel about my system and a fine example of the kind of openess I was hoping for.

BTW, to really form an opinion on the Eclipse/CDS3 comparison, should you not have done it the other way round and taken the CDS3 to Robbo then have a return?

[mick parry]

Robbo will be visiting me at some later date.

Mick

[julian2002]

mike,
americans are megalomaniacs so if they are offered one amp that gives them a killowatt of shoddy sound over 70 watts of good sound then 99% of them will take the killowatt no matter how it sounds. most of the negative comments about naims flagship amps in this thread have been about its 'limp writsed' power output. i would have thought that those here could have risen above judging an amp purely on it's power output however it seems not. Naim kit does certain things very well, it presents the music in a certain way which pushes some peoples buttons.
at the end of the day though, as long as naim make enough money to stay around and keep designing and supporting their killer (imho) kit then who cares if they've penetrated the american market or not.
by the way you mention that they have a considerable marketing spend in the U.S. perhaps you'd like to share what that is? as i've never seen even 1 US advert for naim in stereopile.
cheers


julian

[dunkyboy]

I suspect a lot of the raised hackles surrounding Naim (pro or con) specifically, and hifi generally, has to do with simple wording. People have a nasty habit of expressing their personal opinions as fact - e.g. "Naim kit is shite". Almost always, such statements are meant as statements of opinion ("to my tastes Naim kit is shite"), but the opinion bit just gets left out - due to the ravages of laziness, perhaps, or carelessness, or simply for effect. All it takes is a bit of careless opinion-as-fact spewage to get people's blood boiling, an indignant retort, and then there's no accounting for the sort of bile that comes out of people's keyboards.

Well, that's my theory anyway.

In any case, the solution is simple: make sure that you take any statement as pure opinion unless backed up by cold, hard evidence (something you don't often see on web fora...)

Of course, occasionally people intend to be controversial - or worse, flame-bait - but that's all well and good (after all, we need a little heated name-calling on the boards or it wouldn't be much fun at all), as long as it's not too frequent.

Anyway, yeah, that's my take on it. So, everybody take a chill pill, pop your favourite disc of joy in your favourite disc-of-joy-spinner and enjoy.

Dunc

[tones]

Originally posted by merlin
I just want some sense of balance. Afterall, if the rest of the world chooses to buy an alternative, then maybe, just maybe, there is other products out there worth listening to.

Hi, Merlin, I've just read this thread and I wonder whether we need a sense of balance - as Ian says, it doesn't matter.

I have never heard Naim equipment. This is not through any deliberate decision to avoid it, but there never was any available when I wanted to buy new stuff, and as I am notoriously undiscriminating (some would probably say lacking in taste and/or hearing!), I bought what pleased my ears and lived happily with it. I'm sure it can be bettered, but I really don't care - as I've said before, the idea is that the equipment plays, not I.

I'm sure that Naim is excellent and I'm sure that if I heard it I'd like it. So what, if some of its aficionados are a mite overenthusiastic? Let 'em, I say, it takes all sorts. Some folk take such overenthusiasm as an attack on their own taste and choice, as if the aficionados were saying personally to them, "Aha, but you could have done sooooo much better, if only you'd..." To someone who sees him- or herself as knowledgeable in the field of hi-fi and as having made informed choices, this may seem like an assault on his/her (wo)manhood. Are you sure you're not unconsciously doing this?

You will also be aware that there are certain varieties of equipment support, whose enthusiasts attribute to them almost supernatural powers. Having tried it and having regretfully had no revelations from on high, I happen to disagree with them. But, hey, if they think it and it makes them happy and they want to spread the gospel, does it really matter? You don't have to agree with them, and anyone who is interested will soon find that there are alternatives - as will prospective Naim customers.

So, as Clark said to Vivienne in the last reel of "Gone with the wind"...

[dat19]

Originally posted by julian2002
americans are megalomaniacs so if they are offered one amp that gives them a killowatt of shoddy sound over 70 watts of good sound then 99% of them will take the killowatt no matter how it sounds.


What a load of xenophobic bunk... I'll have you know that we have a large collection tweako cultist lunatics screwing around with 1watt tube amps.. :)


most of the negative comments about naims flagship amps in this thread have been about its 'limp writsed' power output. i would have thought that those here could have risen above judging an amp purely on it's power output however it seems not.


Power ouput is important. Particularly, if you have a large room to fill and you want bass... Again, there are frequent discussions about what speakers are a good match for naim, and typically the power hungry speakers are a non-starter.

Given that speakers dominate the the sound, speakers should be the guiding consideration in choosing a system, so why have the amplifiers ability limit the choice?


by the way you mention that they have a considerable marketing spend in the U.S. perhaps you'd like to share what that is? as i've never seen even 1 US advert for naim in stereopile.


Sure they advertise every once in a while. Stereophile October 2002 pg 86 for instance. [I kept a copy of their recommended components issue to laugh at ;)]

[jtc]

On Naim:

The key to Naim has taken me a number of years to get a handle on. It's not about power - there are considerably more powerful amps available for less money, but then a 250 will drive my speakers to ridiculous levels without noticeable strain so I don't give two hoots about having more power. It's not about detail - again, there are more detailed offerings out there. It's not even about speed or dynamics, as again it's possible to buy better for less.

What Naim is about, as far as I can tell from having owned and hear a great number of competing brands, is unifying all of the above into a cohesive and believable whole. I call it musical. Not over-emphasising or trying too hard. It's a sound which appeals to the music lover rather than the gear head (though there are plenty gear heads amongst their ranks). It's fussy, a bit demanding of setup and ugly - even in its current incarnation. However, I can't criticise it for being ugly in light of what I used to own (a DNM setup).

I can only really speak on behalf of music lovers, as though I have had more than my fair share of hifi, I find it pretty uninteresting stuff and other than wanting to eek the most out of what I have, it's just furniture and appliances like most other things in the home.

Not to pick on them unnecessarily, the fact that I've tried the Sim Audio kit at home and remained unimpressed suggests that it's just another system, in the way most hifi is pleasant plinky plink and lah di dah. Naim doesn't really do this, and I have no idea why. Even my beloved DNM, which outpaces Naim, had the occasional tendency to distract me from the music with thoughts of 'did you hear the creak on the seat of Blind Man Bob when he strummed that last chord?' when in fact none of that matters. What I heard with the DNM I still hear with the Naim - I've side-stepped at a level whereby I don't really trade off much of the round-earth stuff, but for some reason when I hear little secondary nuances and details like that, they don't distract - in fact, the are cohesive within the context of the overall musical piece. I've not heard any other kit that achieves this so easily.

It is ever-so easy for any of us to criticise Naim on an individual-characteristic basis. If you name an specific aspect of musical sound (e.g. bass depth), I can name a system which can do it better. However, what Naim achieves is equivalent to what a good chef achieves - they can turn ordinary or unspectacular ingredients into something special. Comparing a top chef to myself - even if you gave me the finest ingredients in the world and the top chef had the leftovers from Tesco on a busy day, I guarantee that the top chef would create the better dish.

And such it is with Naim. It's the combination and balance of all of these ingredients to create a fine musical 'dish'. Sim Audio, Wadia, you name them - they all may use often better ingredients, but the 'dish' they create isn't satisfying or cohesive to my ears.

In a nutshell: the beauty of Naim is in the balance of the component parts and a synergy between them, not on any one thing. Which is probably why I have only heard three or four decent Naim systems in my life, as poor setup easily throws the balance out and you end up with something that's no better than other hifi.

Biased? Not really. I was the last person anyone expected to defect to Naim...

On the Sim Audio kit:
Quality kit, no better or worse than a number of competitors, but all those who have heard it seem to like it.
Except for me. I found it a bit uninspiring. I know the UK importers very well and they have offered tempting deals on a couple of occasions, but to my ears offerings like the Naim, DNM and similar amps offer a more musical perspective without getting too worried about detail. The Moon Eclipse was a decent £2000 player, priced at £5500. They offered me the chance to buy it for £3000 and I passed*. My opinion and nothing more.

* I bought a Resolution Audio Opus 21. It's that very rare beastie - a giant-killing cd player that betters players twice or three times its price (including the Eclipse by some margin - not in detail, but in fun, musical integrity and general cohesiveness). So that's whay I bought. No regrets whatsoever...

OK, I've said enough...

jtc

[Matt F]

I’ve spent a bit of time over on the Naim forums so I’d like to chip in here.

I’ve nothing against Naim – in fact I’ve been considering their AV2 processor recently. To go with that I’d probably use their amps (NAPV175/NAP150 etc) as this seems to make sense for ease of connectivity and, from what I understand, sound quality issues i.e. Naim pre’s work best with Naim power amps.

This I’m all willing to accept and I even understand people wanting Naim CD players, power supplies etc – the sound, connectivity and looks all back this up.

So far so good but then we get on to speakers – I’m not sure there are any/many reasons why people with Naim electronics should consider Naim speakers over any other makes and yet, more often than not, this is the strong recommendation over on the Naim forums (certainly from what I’ve seen). Okay, I’m sure their speakers are very nice and should be auditioned, but there are loads of alternatives that should be checked out.

What I do find really odd though is when the subject moves on to subwoofers. They are a dirty word to a number of people over there but there are a surprising number of them are interested in exploring what a sub could do for their systems.

Fair enough but what is there excuse for not investigating subs right away? They are waiting for Naim to bring out a subwoofer! WHY for heaven’s sake? There are specialist subwoofer companies around (REL, Velodyne etc) who have been building great subs for 20 odd years – the chances of Naim building a better sub than these companies can offer, and producing it for less money is slim to say the least.

Brand loyalty is one thing but if there was ever one component it doesn’t apply to it is subwoofers – pick the one that sounds best in your room, regardless of who makes it.

Matt.

[julian2002]

dat,
there is an apocryphal story about the first use of a turbo charger in an nhra race. it goes that the guy with a small capacity turbo engine was laughed at by those running large capacity monsters up until the point that the turbo car handed them their ass (or arse if you're british) such was the bitching and moaning by the 'ain;t no substitute for cubes' brigade that even though there was no official rule to ban the turbo car one was made up on the spot and the turbo car was banned.

ok so were back to the dark days of all amps sound the same then? most big power amps have multiple pairs of output transistors if these aren't matched very carefully then you get all sorts of awful crossover distortions. if you buy a cheap gigawatt amp then the most likely place costs will be cut will be on matching the transistors, another thing you need is a stiff power supply which isn;t just a matter of a big toroid and some caps. not many amps power supplies are regulated and those that are, are usually expensive.

finally an occasional advert in stereopile (so occasional that i've missed them all) is hardly the 'substantial marketing spend' that mike put forward.

honestly dat i couldn't really care less about the 'room filling' abilities of naims amps in an american context, i don;t live there. my real question about naims distribution strategy is why they aren;t cashing in on the asian love of anything with a long history. look at how big tannoys, quads and other 'historic' brands sell in japan, hk and singapore. aparently there is no distribution in japan although i believe there is one in singapore. this is what should be being addressed imhuo. still as i said so long as they're in making enough to stick around i don;t really care.
cheers


julian

[Marco]

Please don't take this the wrong way, but having read your opening post thoroughly, I cannot help but come to the conclusion it smacks of someone with an axe to grind.

Is there an unresolved issue with Naim left over from your time as a dealer?

Because, if not, clearly, you have an unhealthy bias.

;) ;) :D :D Why not seeing as every mention of them on PF by Robbo was greeted with the usual distain. Quality kit, no better or worse than a number of competitors, but all those who have heard it seem to like it.


Is it that Moon stuff you use? Sorry, but I heard it once (CDP/Pre/Power combo) at one of the hi-fi shows in conjunction with big JM Lab floorstanders, and the overall sound wasn't exactly awe-inspiring. Of course, that could have been down to a number of factors, although I had heard the JM LABs before on numerous occasions with Accuphase/Spectral, and Naim gear, and liked the sound very much...

Marco.

[tones]

Originally posted by julian2002
dat,
there is an apocryphal story about the first use of a turbo charger in an nhra race. it goes that the guy with a small capacity turbo engine was laughed at by those running large capacity monsters up until the point that the turbo car handed them their ass (or arse if you're british) such was the bitching and moaning by the 'ain;t no substitute for cubes' brigade that even though there was no official rule to ban the turbo car one was made up on the spot and the turbo car was banned.


julian

Totally off topic, Julian, but if it's the same story I know, it's not apocryphal, but one detail is wrong - it wasn't a turbocharger but a gas turbine, as in jet, engine. The formula had been (and remains) 4.2L naturally aspirated and 2.8L super/turbocharged. Gas turbines had been allowed, subject to a restriction on intake area. The arrival of the Paxton Turbine Car in the 1960s showed everyone just how far gas turbine engines had come, when it broke down when leading the Indy 500, with veteran Parnelli Jones on board.

The following year, Lotus entered turbine cars and again one would have won, except for a freak - in a period of running under the yellow lights, the engine heated up and when the lights went off and the driver Joe Leonard pressed the loud pedal, the engine shaft sheared. This was because it was a phosphor-bronze shaft deliberately designed to do this, rather than let the engine catch fire. Colin Chapman of Lotus had wanted stainless steel, but the engine manufacturers refused, fire being anathema to an aircraft engineer.

The authorities took fright at these two near-wins and operated the age-old formula "if you can't beat it, ban it". They introduced a vastly reduced intake area, ensuring that a gas turbine engine was no longer competitive, and they've never been seen again.

[sideshowbob]

So far so good but then we get on to speakers – I’m not sure there are any/many reasons why people with Naim electronics should consider Naim speakers over any other makes and yet, more often than not, this is the strong recommendation over on the Naim forums (certainly from what I’ve seen). Okay, I’m sure their speakers are very nice and should be auditioned, but there are loads of alternatives that should be checked out.


I've never heard a Naim speaker that didn't sound dreadful to me (I haven't heard all of the range, however), but I'm not surprised owners of Naim electronics are strongly inclined to favour Naim speakers over others, and I'm even less surprised that they are strongly recommended on the Naim forum, which is a gathering of people who mostly have Naim gear.


What I do find really odd though is when the subject moves on to subwoofers. They are a dirty word to a number of people over there but there are a surprising number of them are interested in exploring what a sub could do for their systems.


I think Naim are planning to release their own sub, so maybe some of the anti-sub brigade will have an epiphany. In any event, I'm still not convinced any of this matters. If other people don't like subs, even if they have no good reason for their opinion, so what?

-- Ian (who mostly doesn't like subs, as it happens)

[The Devil]

In my experience (Naim amplifier owner since 1989) Naim make some very good preamps, and in particular phono stages; CD players; and some of their old power amps (NAP 140 in particular) are good too, so long as you don't need very high volume and have sensitive speakers in a smallish room.

The Aro is very good, and I gather that the tuners are good too (never heard).

Good second-hand value, and excellent service back-up.

Naim speakers are just plain awful, always have been IMO. I'm not at all impressed with the Fraim, and they have recently attempted to follow Linn down the very overpriced component route - NAC 552, and, rumour has it, a new top CD player at a five figure price. Come to think of it, the CDS2 which I bought was well-overpriced. High-end CD players sound more similar to each other than different, and over £500 or so these differences start to become very subtle.

They have also started playing 'the cable game' with different-coloured (more expensive) SNAICS (interconnects) and the new Burndies: none of which make any audible difference AFAICT.

So a bit of a curate's egg: good in parts.

[Paul Duerden]

Excellent post Bub,

Tony pointed out that if you buy say a secondhand 62, 72 Hicap 140, 250 there is every chance that you will sell it at a profit in a few years if you wish to change. In the interim you get a damn good amp to use effectively free. That is surely a fair enough buying decision.

In my case I changed from Naim to Densen, several friends preferred the Naim, my partner and myself as well as our daughter preferred the Densen. Choice of music or source would probably sway the decision one way or the other anyway.

I think in general enthusiasm is a wonderful thing, if it doesn't descend to fundamentalism. Just to show how different we all are, every pair of JM labs speakers I have heard has left me cold. I'm sure the fault lies in me but I was once very relieved when a pair of Utopias were replaced by Rega Kytes. For me things just seemed to rock better.

[julian2002]

tones,
I was actually referring to the american drag racing series (i think it's the nhra - but i could be mistaken) not cart. also not so off topic as the 'little' nap 500 was being put down due to it's aparent lack of 'cubes' probably without those doing the putting having experienced it.

as to which equipment is best i think the conclustion to be drawn here is - if you've owned it then it's blindingly out of this world and if you haven;t it's at best dubious - as it is with most things we like to defend our purchases.

cheers


julian

[tones]

Originally posted by julian2002
tones,
I was actually referring to the american drag racing series (i think it's the nhra - but i could be mistaken) not cart. also not so off topic as the 'little' nap 500 was being put down due to it's aparent lack of 'cubes' probably without those doing the putting having experienced it.

julian

No, I meant mine was off topic, Julian, not yours. I know little about drag racing (except that the name describes it perfectly) - in which case the story you heard is indeed probably apocryphal as those guys use (and have since time immemorial) not only huge V8s, but also Roots blowers and nitromethane fuel.

[domfjbrown]

Originally posted by sideshowbob
I've never heard a Naim speaker that didn't sound dreadful to me

He he he - he he he he he....

Sorry - just remembering those SL2s I heard - they were bloody awful! I've also heard Alaes (ok), Intros (yuk!) and SBLs (not bad at all). These were all in shows/shops eg probably not representative, but the SL2s and Alaes might as well have only had the tweeters connected for all the bass coming out (and this is from a Rega Ela 1/NAIT3 owner - so I hardly have seismic bass myself ;)).

I'd love to hear DBLs one day, and a colleague I used to work with had Credos on the back of a Rega Elicit/Planet that were supposed to sound good.

But yeah - NAP500/NAC552/CD???(when it comes out) are silly money - but I bet the Naim'll sound better than the Linn CD12. Where's my slippers, Nitol and hottie??? ;)

[Matt F]

Originally posted by sideshowbob
I think Naim are planning to release their own sub, so maybe some of the anti-sub brigade will have an epiphany. In any event, I'm still not convinced any of this matters. If other people don't like subs, even if they have no good reason for their opinion, so what?

-- Ian (who mostly doesn't like subs, as it happens)

Agree totally - it is the Naim owners who are interested in subs that I was on about. They are presently saying "all I have to do is wait for Naim to release a sub" - the answer to which is - "don't be so daft, there are loads of great subs about already (and there's no need to stick with Naim) so get out there and start investigating/demoing".

Matt.

[julian2002]

tones,
oops sorry. it's just this thread has my hackles up... i'll leave it now.
cheers


julian

[merlin]

Sorry Julian, I just felt it was worth airing, and in my opinion, it has produced some of the most lucid descriptions of the pleasures of owning Naim kit I have seen, in particular JTC's comments.

FWIW, I did hear a Naim setup once that I really liked (CDX2/XPS2/252/Supercap/300 all on Hutter with Dynaudio 3.4 speakers) It was only the cost that made me put my chequebook away (about £22K:eek: )

[Alex S]

Cost is very much a factor, especially if you have a large room.

[Marco]

Originally posted by mick parry

I am visiting Robbo this coming saturday to listen to his system. I am taking the wife and if his system sounds better than mine, I will flog it and buy one like his.


Mick, sorry for being critical, old chap, but I don't believe for a second you'd do that. You're too entrenched in the whole Naim ethos to change brands now, and you'd lose your special PS discount to boot.

Besides, you've deliberately refused to reply when I've asked you on numerous occasions if you'd audition the EA-2 against the 300 when you're in the market for a new power amp. I think we know the answer to that one...

So we are all open minded.


Sorry, but I don't think so, old chap.

Regards,
Marco.

[Marco]

Hi TC, it's good to see you've brought your eloquent style with you over to ZG.

It is ever-so easy for any of us to criticise Naim on an individual-characteristic basis. If you name an specific aspect of musical sound (e.g. bass depth), I can name a system which can do it better. However, what Naim achieves is equivalent to what a good chef achieves - they can turn ordinary or unspectacular ingredients into something special.


Totally agree, although I find their new gear a bit too 'nouvelle cuisine' for my liking.

Comparing a top chef to myself - even if you gave me the finest ingredients in the world and the top chef had the leftovers from Tesco on a busy day, I guarantee that the top chef would create the better dish.

And such it is with Naim. It's the combination and balance of all of these ingredients to create a fine musical 'dish'.


Again, agreed. Have you by any chance been reading my 'top-secret mission statement' ? ;)

In a nutshell: the beauty of Naim is in the balance of the component parts and a synergy between them, not on any one thing. Which is probably why I have only heard three or four decent Naim systems in my life, as poor setup easily throws the balance out and you end up with something that's no better than other hifi.


If Burntisland gets too cold, come down to 'sunny' Wrexham (LOL, joke) and check out mine, although undoubtedly it is a little less Naim-like these days since the addition of the EA-2.

* I bought a Resolution Audio Opus 21. It's that very rare beastie - a giant-killing cd player that betters players twice or three times its price


Bloody brilliant CDP! I heard one at Adventures In Hi-fi last year, and in my opinion, it's not far behind a CDS2 (with the old XPS). Unfortunately, it doesn't get enough recognition. I reckon it would trounce the CDX2, though.

Laters,
Marco.

[garyi]

I find myself suprisingly in agreement with Marco on this one.

In the past year it seems the main 'slayer' of naim has infact been Merlin, and I find it quite amusing that he should start a thread asking why people feel the need to defend it, when he is always so keen to ridicule it, so its nice to see his new years resolution.

I won't bother going into detail on why I love naim, and I will put my 2 pences worth in when it comes up. I appriciate Wadia's appraisel of naim however, at least he is stating his opinion and being amusing with it. Much of merlins postings concerning naim have been in my recolection very rude, and yes it has got my hackles up.

It all comes down to music at the end of the day, since owning naim stuff I have fallen in love with music, prior to naim I had some Pink Floyd and some other 70s stuff, and anything without instruments was crap etc etc. Nower days I will try anything and spend a lot of money on music, I love it.

I am not blind, I think its people like Merlin who clearly have a preferences for the kit (I am not having a go BTW, we all have hobbies after all) who get angered by people like me who frankly can't be arsed to change their kit every month because it 'excentuates the upper ting on the cymbal' or what ever.

I tend to find with the people I have met who own naim that there is always a substatial amount of music in the room, I am not saying before any one shoots off that those without naim don't.

I would also point out that I have never offered an opinion good or bad on stuff that I havn't heard, can't really say fairer than that.

Finally, I rather think naim would not be so prevelent on these forums if it did not have probably the busiest single manufactuer HIFI forum on the web, if its forum had never existed I am sure some other manufactuer would be attracting so much attention on these HIFI forums.

[domfjbrown]

Originally posted by Marco
Totally agree, although I find their new gear a bit too 'nouvelle cuisine' for my liking.

:D :cool: ;) :cool: :D

Love it Marco - that's the best description of the higher end current Naim gear - not quite Money For Nothing, but a lot of money for what it is. The lower end stuff like the 5 series seems to still be good VFM though :)

[Tom Alves]

And once again a thread descends to those love it defending it and apologising and those who have an axe to grind , grinding hard. Almost the complete opposite of what this thread started out to say.

What can one say. Good Grief :rolleyes:

[Robbo]

Is it that Moon stuff you use? Sorry, but I heard it once (CDP/Pre/Power combo) at one of the hi-fi shows in conjunction with big JM Lab floorstanders, and the overall sound wasn't exactly awe-inspiring. Of course, that could have been down to a number of factors, although I had heard the JM LABs before on numerous occasions with Accuphase/Spectral, and Naim gear, and liked the sound very much...

Marco,

I was at Bristol last year, went into the the Redline room (demonstrating sim kit) and walked out after about 5 seconds. It was awful. But you of all people should know, as a naimie, that setup is all. Get it (the Sim kit) working at home under optimal conditions and it is really rather good.

As so many Naimies have said to me over the years, never go by what you hear at shows.


I bought a Resolution Audio Opus 21. It's that very rare beastie - a giant-killing cd player that betters players twice or three times its price (including the Eclipse by some margin - not in detail, but in fun, musical integrity and general cohesiveness).

JTC,

The reason why I like the eclipse so much is that in my system it has in spades the very musical integrity and cohesiveness that you feel it lacks.

Funny old game isn't it?

Cheers, Robbo

[Tom Alves]

Have to agree about Naim and set up. I'm only allowed to whisper this so don't tell anyone but Naim kit is very sensitive to its environment. If it's not happy it can sound pants, which is why so many here don't like Naim speakers. The problem is the potential for greatness is there but is rarely fully realised. When it is however then it is worth every penny and every ounce of effort.

Or maybe I'm deluding myself. Whatever I'm happy. Igmorance is bliss. :)

[mick parry]

You said

"Mick, sorry for being critical, old chap, but I don't believe for a second you'd do that. You're too entrenched in the whole Naim ethos to change brands now, and you'd lose your special PS discount to boot."

Hifi to me is about making music sound good. To date, Naim have won hands down in that department. If I genuinely find something better, the whole lot goes up on Ebay. Simple as that.

I have no qualms whatsoever about doing it.

Regards

Mick

[Steven Toy]

Mick,

It would be far less drastic just to try out one power amp.

[mick parry]

Thank you

[Steven Toy]

Well actually, I meant two power amps and one of them isn't Naim.

[merlin]

Originally posted by Tom Alves
And once again a thread descends to those love it defending it and apologising and those who have an axe to grind , grinding hard. Almost the complete opposite of what this thread started out to say.

What can one say. Good Grief :rolleyes:

My thought entirely Tom, well said.

In the past year it seems the main 'slayer' of naim has infact been Merlin,

Now now Gary:D I admit I am unlikely to become a convert, but please, I have tried to be accomodating here.

Now Mick, will you be bringing the CDS3 up to Bracknell with you? Surely this is the only fair way of judging the Eclipse?

[mick parry]

Thank you so much

[mick parry]

When you visit someones house you are listening to a complete system. The CDP is just one part of it.

I will be comparing two systems, Robbo's and mine.

Robbo has done research etc and come up with his sytem. I am a mindless sheep, dripping in cash and will just buy Naim.

Listening to these two systems will help me decide which strategy I should adopt in the future.

Regards

Mick

[Alex S]

Mick, Steven may have a point. What if you go to Robbo's, prefer his stuff, buy it, flog all the Naim and then go somewhere else which you prefer to Robbo's system? This is hypothetical, perhaps Robbo has the best system on the planet but if he does would the same system sound as good at your place?

My system is starting to sound quite good after 2 years of pissing about with setup, support, acoustic foam and mains yet some of the components, the speakers especially, can sound ghastly without all that effort.

To be honest, I think I'd advise anyone to try and get the very best they can out of what they've got, you know, silly little things like getting the speakers in phase, before making any further changes, particularly of brand. Nonetheless, we all make mistakes, like B&Ws, soonest rid the better, for me, yet others love'em.

Alex

[mick parry]

Let me visit Robbo and take it from there.

Regards

Mick

[dat19]

Originally posted by julian2002
also not so off topic as the 'little' nap 500 was being put down due to it's aparent lack of 'cubes' probably without those doing the putting having experienced it.


Sure I've heard the NAP500 into NBL's.

I've also heard the Bryston 4BST into a range of speakers.

And if I had a mountain of money, I'd still by the Bryston, it's a better amp and you can buy it new (discounted) for a tenth of the price..

[garyi]

Having not heard Bryston I am unable to comment.

Having heard a nap500 into NBLS, I fail to see what it is you need from music to enjoy it, if I wanted a PA in the house I would get a JBL PA Rig.

[Robbo]

This is hypothetical, perhaps Robbo has the best system on the planet but if he does would the same system sound as good at your place?

Why just call it hypothetical? ;)

Alex is correct, My little ProAcs in Micks large front room would be hopelessly lost and the amp is underpowered for driving speakers in his large room. The stuff works a treat in my room though - to my ears. It simply isnt possible to transplant systems into different rooms and get the same sound in my experience. The room is an intrinsic part of any system.

[merlin]

Originally posted by mick parry
Listening to these two systems will help me decide which strategy I should adopt in the future.

Regards

Mick

Without wishing to sound facetious, how?

What exactly do you hope to gain?

If it's justification for the CDS3, then I would suggest without a direct comparison of both sources in both setups, then the excerise is meaningless (although Robbo is always a gratious host and a pleasure to visit)

[Robbo]

.....Well hopefully, it'll be a pleasant way to spend a few hours - listening to good music in the company of a fellow music lover and having a chat about all things hifi.

[mick parry]

What does it take to please you.

In one thread Naim owners are a bunch of mindless sheep with more money than sense, kidding themselves that they have the best kit. Naturally they look down on everyone else etc.

Now when I actually visit someone who has a nil % Naim kit, you start off again.

Never the less, I shall be patient with you and explain in fairly baby language.

Tomorrow I will visit Robbo.

I will listen to his system

If I think my system sounds better, I shall keep it.

If Robbo's system sounds better than mine, I will have first hand experience that Naim can be bettered. I shall then flog the Naim.

Is it making sense now.

Please feel free to ask for more information if you are still uncertain as to my proposed procurement strategy.

Regards

Mick

[mick parry]

I am bringing 31 Sarah Brightman CD's.

Mick

[merlin]

Originally posted by mick parry
Please feel free to ask for more information if you are still uncertain as to my proposed procurement strategy.

Regards

Mick

It's OK Mick:rolleyes: Now I fully understand why your understanding of the subject is at best limited despite your advanced years.

Arsed......can't be!

[TonyL]

I am bringing 31 Sarah Brightman CD's.

[newsflash:] It is suspected that there will be a mass exodus from Berkshire tomorrow resulting in major traffic flow problems on all roads leading away from what has been referred to as both ‘ground zero II’ or ‘Robbo’s house’. This alert is due to a suspected but very real threat of audio terrorism.

[Robbo]

Well, as long as you are not bringing any of your shotguns.........

[garyi]

I would prefer the shotguns.

[TonyL]

I would prefer the shotguns.

Just the one would do, so you can stick both barrels in your mouth and blow your brains all over the wall rather than listen to Ms Brightman. The alternative of repeatedly stabbing yourself in the eye with a fork until the relief of death comes is simply too time consuming.

Tony.

[garyi]

What concerns me is that there might actually be 31 Cds of this nature out there.

Very scary.

[Marco]

Yerse... and after all that, Mick still won't tell me if he'll try the EA-2 :rolleyes:

Mick, I really don't know what your problem is. Why won't you answer the question...?

[merlin]

Originally posted by Marco
Yerse... and after all that, Mick still won't tell me if he'll try the EA-2 :rolleyes:

Mick, I really don't know what your problem is. Why won't you answer the question...?

Marco,

Mick's clearly not a gambler, and would hate to upset the powers that be;)

[penance]

Originally posted by mick parry
I am bringing 31 Sarah Brightman CD's.

Mick

:eek: :duck: :eek:

run Robbo run!

[mick parry]

Quote...."Mick, I really don't know what your problem is. Why won't you answer the question...?

Because I am a while away from doing it.

The next purchase is a Supercap for the Garrard. I want to be able to come in on here and say my TT is better than yours etc.

Robbo.....I have just bought a Sarah Brightman LP, if you got a TT, I can bring it along.

Regards

Mick

[Robbo]

Mick,

Fortunately, I dont have a TT.

Robbo

[garyi]

Infact Mick, Robbo only has a tape deck as source.

(Robbo you owe me a fiver)

[penance]

Mick
Best take your Garrard with you :D

[spxy]

"However, to put that into perspective, if we estimate the average unit cost to be £1500, then the above equates to approximatly 600 units or 50 per month. Now given the fact that the mainland of the US has more than 50 States, most of which are larger than the UK, that means that each of these States is selling just one Naim component per month at best."

From the original post.
No US states are bigger inpopulation than Britian and most are very small around 3 million, a few have high poulations of around 30 million.
The total pop is around 260 million divide that by 50 and you get roughtly 5 million per state.

:p

[bottleneck]

Those sales figures have got to be way off.

I was re-reading a ''Naim factory tour'' in a hifi magazine last week.

It said Naim has 100 workers.

That sales volume is too low for that number of staff, Im confident of that.


....but this forum makes you paranoid...am I right?!?? :rolleyes:

[merlin]

Originally posted by spxy
[BNo US states are bigger inpopulation than Britian and most are very small around 3 million, a few have high poulations of around 30 million.
The total pop is around 260 million divide that by 50 and you get roughtly 5 million per state.

:p [/B]

You are right spxy, but perhaps I should clarify that the North American market does infact mean US and Canada (total pop. 330 million).

My point was simply that in a marketplace with large choice and a target audience with a large amount of disposable income, there is about 5% of the penetration that there is here in the UK. Why?

That sales volume is too low for that number of staff, Im confident of that.

Chris, that's purely North American sales, which make up approximately 14% of total turnover. Nearly 70% is in the domestic market, which is odd.

[wadia-miester]

Chris I believe it's near 110, whats' the GRP anyway?, a healthy company should be banging in 45-58%, me feels the 'dealers' in hifi land make the most of the margins I feel.

[Marco]

Originally posted by mick parry


Quote...."Mick, I really don't know what your problem is. Why won't you answer the question...?

Because I am a while away from doing it.


That's fine, Mick, but all you have to say is: "I'll try the EA-2 when I'm in the market for a new power amp".

Surely that's not too difficult?

I'm sorry to be so pedantic about this, but I can't help feeling your being deliberately evasive.

Merlin, you're another one... what was your dealership called?

Regards,
Marco.

(Who you should know by now won't back down until he gets his questions answered)

[merlin]

Marco,

I think you need to learn that this is a public forum where you can ask whatever you want but no one is under any obligation to provide you with an answer.

As for your question to me, because of your attitude I do not feel like answering. It has been mentioned before, so if you are that keen, why not do a search;)

[garyi]

Merlin, what axe are you trying to grind? What percentage of big box american crap has made it successfully in large volume on these shores?

Its a fair question because I don't actually know.

[merlin]

Originally posted by garyi
Merlin, what axe are you trying to grind? What percentage of big box american crap has made it successfully in large volume on these shores?

Its a fair question because I don't actually know.

Gary, I don't know is the honest answer, although Absolute Sounds don't seem to be doing too badly.

As for big box american crap, I am unaware of anything fitting that description being imported, certainly in the hifi field, unless of course, by "crap" you really mean "hifi that's not to my minority tastes"

[Paul Ranson]

"I'll try the EA-2 when I'm in the market for a new power amp".
Why that amp? An amp with a future as uncertain as its past.

What other amps did you try? For instance there's a new Linn technology just announced at CES that looks interesting, the right sort of power and nice and small.

Paul

[Andrew L Weekes]

'He who goes against the fashion is himself it's slave'

I applaud Merlin's original post, although I wish he hadn't then carried on trying to prove some kind of point ;)

It think it should be remembered that the vehemence amongst Naim owners is matched by that of its detractors, It think both sides should open their minds and also bear in mind that everything is situation dependant.

I've spent several hours today with a Linn Ikemi - a very good CD player that I've enjoyed immensely, but unfortunately one that has a rather unpleasant effect on the rest of my Naim kit when it's plugged into the mains.

In a different system though...

Andy.

[osama]

I see that the year has changed but the debate on Naim hasn't. Let it be said then for the Naim kit that what is controversial maybe something good;)


regards

[Marco]

Originally posted by merlin

As for your question to me, because of your attitude I do not feel like answering. It has been mentioned before, so if you are that keen, why not do a search ;)


Merlin, I should have put a smiley at the end, because my comment was very much tongue-in-cheek :)

For those who hate smileys, please take note!

Mick, just seems unusually evasive over this particular issue, and I'm curious as to why...

Marco.

[bottleneck]

Originally posted by garyi
Merlin, what axe are you trying to grind? What percentage of big box american crap has made it successfully in large volume on these shores?

Its a fair question because I don't actually know.

I think its fair to say that 'big box american hifi' .. by its very name is 'big' and therefore expensive.

Expensive high end audio whether large box or small - US or UK only sells in small volumes. That is my point really.

Chris

[Marco]

Originally posted by Paul Ranson

Why that amp?


In my opinion, it has all the qualities of 135s (Mick's current amps), with bags more detail and refinement, and as such, would slot in nicely with the rest of his system without upsetting the balance.

Furthermore, IMO, it is also far superior to a 300 (which I don't rate even as highly as 135s), is £750 cheaper, and it has much more power, which is useful not only to be able to play music louder (should one wish to do so), but at low volumes, allows one to hear deep into the music. In my experience this is not achieved to the same degree with 135s or a 300. It is also known to work well with Briks - and it looks sexy as ****. However, I think he should also listen to Dynavector, Bryston, and Spectral, amongst others.

An amp with a future as uncertain as its past.


That’s interesting, Paul. What makes you say that?

ECS made the Stealth amps for long enough, and as far as I'm aware, those belonging to long-time users such as JW, Hermann, Ian Wright, fox, etc, are still running just fine, so why should the EA-2 be any different? Furthermore, ECS have been in business for years making bespoke PCBs, so even if they pulled out of the hi-fi arena, they'd still be able to service the amps.

Oh, and just in case you try telling me the Stealth amps were different, I've already checked with both ECS and JW, and they're identical except for the casing. Btw, the reason Neat are bad-mouthing ECS and the EA-2, is because Bob S has fallen out with ECS.

What other amps did you try?


Paul, I listen to different gear all the time, as I know dealers who allow me to home demo whatever equipment I want whenever it is mutually convenient. One cannot make knowledgeable comparisons otherwise, and nothing has sounded better in my system than the EA-2.

For instance there's a new Linn technology just announced at CES that looks interesting, the right sort of power and nice and small.


I never dismiss anything until I've heard it myself, but if it's on the same level as their current range of gear, then I think I'll give it a miss thank you very much!

Marco.

[Marco]

Originally posted by Andrew L Weekes

I've spent several hours today with a Linn Ikemi - a very good CD player that I've enjoyed immensely, but unfortunately one that has a rather unpleasant effect on the rest of my Naim kit when it's plugged into the mains.


Andy, it just goes to show how opinions differ. I demo'd the Ikemi against a CDX about three years ago, and in my opinion, the CDX wiped the floor with it - and this was in a system containing a Bonnec amp and Shahinian Arcs.

IMO, Linn haven't produced a good CDP since the Karik/Numerik; which was truly excellent.

Marco.

[Paul Ranson]

I listen to different gear all the time, as I know dealers who allow me to home demo whatever equipment I want whenever it is mutually convenient. One cannot make knowledgeable comparisons otherwise, and nothing has sounded better in my system than the EA-2.
But what other amps have you tried in your system?

I think buying the ECS amps requires quite a leap of faith, compared to a Naim or even Dynavector. It's to do with track record and confidence rather than performance.

I never dismiss anything until I've heard it myself, but if it's on the same level as their current range of gear, then I think I'll give it a miss thank you very much!
What Linn amps have you tried in your system? I'd have thought the Klimax setup was an obvious choice, especially since you would reduce the box count to two, which means more Mana.

Paul

[Markus S]

Originally posted by merlin
As for your question to me, because of your attitude I do not feel like answering. It has been mentioned before, so if you are that keen, why not do a search;)

Hi merlin,

if I ask nicely and without attitude, would you tell me what your dealership was called? Even more interesting, which makes did you sell, why and with what experiences?

[Marco]

Paul, for me, performance is the most important thing above all else, as long as it's backed up with reliability.

I have no reason to believe the ECS amps lack reliability, and their performance is, in my opinion, of the highest order.

Marco.

[mick parry]

Quote..."Mick, just seems unusually evasive over this particular issue, and I'm curious as to why..."

I am not being evasive, I am just posting less these days.

My own view is that the 135's are good and that the 300 is nearly as good as the 500 but for less cost. Therefore I could put the cash difference into a 552.

As regards to the 300 v ECS thingy, I like the Naim sound so my inclination is stick with what you know. I accept that I should give the ECS's a dem and will probably do so when I am in the market.

One thing about Naim is that you can be confident that they will be around to service the amp in 10 years and I need to be sure that the same applies to any other manufacturer. I do not want to invest in an expensive amp just to find that I am on my own in 5 years time. But, then, these things can be checked out.

Regards

Mick

[Tom Alves]

Mick

What you need to do is forget all that other rubbish and swap out your 52 for a 552 and then remove the 135s and replace them with 3 x 300s and an active crossover. You know it makes sense and Salisbury can do with the money to make up for poor US sales.

[Marco]

Sorry, I replied whilst you were editing your message!

Originally posted by Paul Ranson

But what other amps have you tried in your system?


Since when exactly? Within the last few months it's mostly been Naim stuff. I've tried the new 250 and a 300, and I'm also looking forward to trying a 500, and comparing it to the EA-2 - now that will be interesting!

Paul, what you should know is that I wasn't in the market as such for a new power amp, so I hadn't been doing any auditioning. However I had always liked Stealth amps, and knew how well they worked with a CDS and 52. I was round visiting JW just before Christmas, and he said: "Here's a toy for you to play with over Christmas; let me know what you think of it." I did, and the rest is history.

What Linn amps have you tried in your system?


None have been good enough for me to get that far.

Marco.

[Andrew L Weekes]

Andy, it just goes to show how opinions differ.

Not necessarily, I wasn't comparing the Ikemi to a CDX!

Andy.

[Marco]

I didn't say you were; I was relating my own experience of the Ikemi, which is priced similarly to a CDX. What were you comparing it to, if anything?

Marco.

[Marco]

Hi Mick, thanks for answering!

Originally posted by mick parry

As regards to the 300 v ECS thingy, I like the Naim sound so my inclination is stick with what you know.


Sure, but that's insular thinking is it not? If you do that, how will you ever know if you're missing out on something better? You say you like the best, but you can't say what's best if you don't know what else is out there.

I accept that I should give the ECS's a dem and will probably do so when I am in the market.


That would be a very smart move, old chap. Trust me on this one, Mick, you will thank me for it one day...

Regards,
Marco.

[Barnie]

Hmmm.....

"Sure, but that's insular thinking is it not? If you do that, how will you ever know if you're missing out on something better? You say you like the best, but you can't say what's best if you don't know what else is out there." Marco

IMO what you say is right and wrong.

If you are happy with what you have and then hear something better, you then have a problem, ie: shit now I've got to find the cash for a new peice of kit and then your not happy with what you have.

Sometimes ignorance is bliss.....................

Glad you're enjoying your new amp though;)

Best regards

Barnie.
http://barnies-place.co.uk/lounge/index.php?

[Marco]

I agree, Barnie, but since Mick has already said he's thinking about changing his 135s for a 300, I think he owes it to himself to audition the alternatives and ensure he makes the right choice rather than having to rectify an expensive mistake afterwards...

Regards,
Marco.

[Barnie]

Yes point taken;)

Barnie
http://www.barnies-place.co.uk/

[Tom Alves]

Yup, he should listen to the NAP500 as well ;)

[Barnie]

And again;)

Cheers

Barnie
http://www.barnies-place.co.uk/

[Marco]

Originally posted by Tom Alves

Yup, he should listen to the NAP500 as well


Sure, Tom, then once he's heard the EA-2, he can nominate what charity gets the change that's left over ;)

Marco.

P.S Are you in Crieff yet?

[Tom Alves]

Next Friday

[Marco]

Hope everything goes well with the move.

Marco.

[Tom Alves]

Thank you. So do I :)

[Steven Toy]

I have heard all the contenders for Mick's new power amp + the NAP 500 and the Stealth monoblocks.

The best of the lot was the Stealth monoblocks by far. A NAP 500 just doesn't come close for sheer effortless/seamless musicality, clout and cavernous soundstaging. They give you a feeling of :notworthy :mrtoy:

Next would be the 500, and Stealth stereo - a dead ringer for the new ECS in all but casing I do believe. The two come very close and I'd need to hear them in a head-to-head to be sure which I prefered.

NAP 300 versus the ECS? It's a no-brainer.

The Stealths are highly synergistic with Briks as well as with Naim preamps. Briks really do come into their own when fed the serious power that Naim amps lack in comparison.

Mick,

A CDS3/552/ECS EA-2 (or even EA-1s :o ) on Hutter/Briks on Mana would give me the serious green eye. It would certainly be a contender for the :mrtoy: Best System gong!

BTW, the EA-1s are about a grand and a bit more than the NAP300 and only just over half the price of a NAP 500 IIRC/AFAIK

[garyi]

Suppose it depends what you want from music, fidelity or shear power.

[merlin]

Originally posted by Steven Toy
IA CDS3/552/ECS EA-2 (or even EA-1s :o ) on Hutter/Briks on Mana would give me the serious green eye. It would certainly be a contender for the :mrtoy: Best System gong!



Again, to be absolutely accurate, could we insert the word "loud" after "going". For me, it seems strange to have £25K worth of electronics powering some old Briks, surely a look at something a little better would be in order?

[mick parry]

A lot of us like Briks. It is all down to personal preference.

They lack the absolute top end clarity and detail of newer models but they communicate music like nothing else.

Regards

Mick

[mick parry]

Thanks for the posting.

Any chance of a bit more detail.

You said that you have heard several power amps. Were they all in the same system or in different systems. Also were they all driven by the same pre amp.

Many thanks

Mick

[Lt Cdr Data]

I have read Merlin's post and it doesn't to my eyes look like an axe to grind, more a genuine enquiry by a honest person.

What worries me about Naim is that they say there is an upgrade route, that the next model will sound SOOO much better than the one before it.

I can't understand this viewpoint with the amps, as they are all the same, its just the transformer that is bigger.

I have a feeling they see their quasi-complementary output stage as absolutely critical to their sound, and the only way to get ;more power was to bridge the thing, which was what they did to get more power, thus preserving the very thing responsible for the sound?.

I have to say, I do like the naim sound, its alive, ebbing, flowing, but I believe it comes from the simplicity of the design. DNM amps are very simple, too.

And again the prices, they are indeed taking the Michael, sorry Michael, with their new prices, they are absurb, its sheer greed no other word for it.

They made their name with the Linn fraternity in the 80s, as like with all things, it was easier and simpler then....now its VERY hard, there are so many people trying to get your attention, one voice gets lost easily.

However good Naim is, for the price you pay, I do well to remind myself one thing, I did a listening test with a few amps, Class A, studio, Naim and one or two others, the Naim came to my ears top, true it didn't sound nearly as good without a Naim Pre which leads me to suspect the pre has a massive factor, but they were all comfortably beaten by a 12 watt valve amp I paid about £250 for.:D
And if you keep your eyes out, for maybe £3.5k, you could buy ATc scm100s, with a 12 inch woofer, that 4" dome mid, and 350 watts of class A mosfet power amps, together with active crossovers, that's what 1/2 the price of a secondhand NAP500?
value?

[Steven Toy]

Mick,

I heard the Stealth monos on the end of a heavily modified 62 and with Biks. It was at Pog's place so there was a lot of Mana.

I heard the Stereo Stealth at JW's. He uses a 52 and Briks.

I have heard the NAP 500 at several shows - some sounded good, others not so good, and also at the Stafford Naim Musical Evening at the Moathouse, Acton Trussel back in November 2002 where I got to hear the 300 and 500 in direct comparison with a 252 and a 552.

TBH, I think you need at least a 500 (or its ilk) to really benefit from the transparency of a 552.

I didn't hear much improvement when the 552 was slid into place over the 252 with the 300. I did when they used the 500 and swapped the 52 for a 552 though at an earlier demo. Both demos were private, and Naim had gone to a lot of trouble to pick a decent room and set things up optimally.

Mick, you have a pm.

[merlin]

Thanks for some of the comments regarding the "motive" behind this thread. I hope it's become clear that it is an honest question.

I recall Mick saying somewhere that I did not have the experience. Maybe true when it comes to the Naim phenomenon, but I just want to understand it!

I have come to understand most other facets of this hobby. Over the past twenty years I have dabbled with most of the options out there, and can see each has a certain attraction. I've owned panels, mini monitors, big multidriver behemoths. I've owned TT's and top end CD, SACD, multichannel extravagences and top headphones. I've tried valve, solid state, digital.

I have owned an LP12, set up by JMH and tweaked, I've had mana, Townsend, cables ,and more mains tweaks than you can name. With everything I've tried, I could see the attraction, particularly on a sound/cost basis. Some were more to my liking than others, but that's to be expected given personal preference.

But I just don't get the UK's fascination with Naim! All I ever hear is "communication" and "music" but that's far too generic. Music can be found in many different combinations of equipment. Communication? Listen to Sinatra on large panels driven by high powered valves. Fireworks? try Berlioz on Classe/ Dynaudio Masters. Presence? listen to a low powered SET driving Klipsch corner Horns! Boogy and party? LP12 (Valhalla pre cirkus)

This afternoon I've been listening to vinyl on a 13W SET (Art Audio Diavlo). Vocals to die for, seamless, grainless, in a word "sexy".

What I find sad is that most comparisons of Naim gear seem to be with other Naim gea. It just seems such a closed world which is odd as it only seems to be the case in the UK. Now if a company such as Audio Reseach can be loved across the globe, that suggests to me that there is kit out there that we all like, so tastes vary less globaly than might be thought.

Great British stalwarts such as Harbeth, Proac, Tannoy and EAR have a huge following around the world. So why not Naim? What are we all missing?

Like I said, this isn't a bash, more an attempt to understand. I can understand and appreciate most kit I hear (and not just esoteric, Rotel IMHO make some of the most underrated power amps on the planet). It's just Naim seems so ordinary to me. Some will say I am not a music lover, that I like kit for kit's sake. But that's wrong, I love my music as much as anyone, it's just that hifi is a hobby to me and, as with any hobby I seek understanding and knowledge. One day I will have had enough and settle down with one system to rule them all! But at he moment, I cannot see it having anything from Salibury in it.

Cheers

Michael

[mick parry]

We all like different sounds but I think Naim did the wise thing in the eighties with the Naim-Linn axis. That was a very wise move which put Naim on the map.

Also Naim have a well thought out upgrade trail which makes life very easy.

The cable / interconnects is also well thought out. Naimees do not have to agonise over this little issue.

There is also the advantage of longevity and servicing older kit, again this is a confidence booster for customers.

The relatively high resale value means that newbies can come in at the bottom end and progress up rather cheaply. If you buy and sell at the same price, Naim becomes free hifi.

I buy it because I like the sound but all the reasons quoted above are a bloody good perk.

Regards

Mick

[merlin]

Mick,

All the above reasons are excellent, but of little consolation if Hugh Masakela's Train doesn't cause me to burst into tears as it would on an Audio Research/Quad setup. (whatever happened to the Naim Electrostats anyway?)

What sould I be listening for with Naim kit? What does it do specifically that nothing else can? How do you desribe "groove" and "timing" to someone like me?

[Tom Alves]

Ok, the question makes sense. Probably two questions. Why do we like sound,why don't we try anything else? Putting aside the attitude that everybody has about their kit of "I have made the right choice so don't challenge me, in case I'm wrong"

So the first bit is easy and simply put. It rocks my boat in a way nothing else does. It seems to isolate that bit ina musical performance that I listen to in live music. That is not to say it is like a live performance. It connects me to the musician and their playing of the instruments rather than concentrating on what sounds the instruments are making. This distinction is very fine but it's enough for me. A lot of what others listen for in hi-fi (including the new blackbox Naim kit) is of lesser importance or totally irrelevant for my pleasure.

Second question. Why not look elsewhere. Well Merlin you admit you've had more hi-fi setups than I've had hot dinners, where as I've had Naim for the last ten years and not seriously looked elsewhere. Partly this is because of the above and partly because Naim comes as a package that is easy to upgrade from with in the fold. It works best with other Naim kit so straying isn't likely unless you start completely again. There is no worry about which interconnect to use. Basically the worry is taken out of upgrades. If you aren't really into hi-fi or don't want to swap your kit out each month for something different it takes much of the strain out of the game. You can get obsessive with tweaking stands, power and dressing but the boxes remain constant. The next upgrade is easy, the path is mapped out for you.

So you like the sound and are encouraged to stay with it. Couple that with a sense of fellowship (yessss my precioussss) and a company that delivers first rate customer service you can begin to see why there is so much loyalty. Naim isn't for everone. It may not be the cheapest or the most realistic (in a round earth sense ;)) butit can be terrible fulfilling for very little effort.

[Barnie]

"
Merlin
We all like different sounds but I think Naim did the wise thing in the eighties with the Naim-Linn axis. That was a very wise move which put Naim on the map.

Also Naim have a well thought out upgrade trail which makes life very easy.

The cable / interconnects is also well thought out. Naimees do not have to agonise over this little issue.

There is also the advantage of longevity and servicing older kit, again this is a confidence booster for customers.

The relatively high resale value means that newbies can come in at the bottom end and progress up rather cheaply. If you buy and sell at the same price, Naim becomes free hifi.

I buy it because I like the sound but all the reasons quoted above are a bloody good perk.

Regards

Mick"


I'd agree with everything Mick has said above but would just add, some people have very busy lives and in their spare time like to enjoy music, sticking with a brand such as Naim gives them what they need as they don't have the time to phaff about demming all the kit out there, simple really;)

Best regards

Barnie.
http://www.barnies-place.co.uk/

[mick parry]

I am not very good with words so I am finding it difficult to answer your question without repeating an answer that you will have heard before.

To me, Naim communicates music better than any other make. My toes tap quicker etc. Basically I find it move involving.

Also there is a lot of truth in what Barnie said. Most Naim buyers of new kit, probably fall into the top half of the income bracket and are cash rich and time poor. Naim makes it easy and for me at least, has delivered every time.

Regards

Mick

[Tom Alves]

Originally posted by merlin
Mick,

All the above reasons are excellent, but of little consolation if Hugh Masakela's Train doesn't cause me to burst into tears as it would on an Audio Research/Quad setup. (whatever happened to the Naim Electrostats anyway?)

What sould I be listening for with Naim kit? What does it do specifically that nothing else can? How do you desribe "groove" and "timing" to someone like me? The FBLs were reputed to be able to fry a cat and much documented on the Naim forum as are discussions on PRaT. but briefly, does the music flow, does it want to make you dance and are all the instruments in time with each other (e.g. the bass line isn't half a beat behind the vocals and the high hat is rythmic rather than all over the place). And if the emotion of Hugh Masakela recountig the Coal Train doesn't have a lump in your throat then something is wrong. The inflection and rythm of the telling is all important.

[Tom Alves]

Naturally that doesn't mean other kit doesn't do any of this or even does it better cheaper. And anyone one sensible will admit that there is kit which totallly opposite to Naim which is equally good

[Markus S]

Tom, ISTR the Naim electrostats were to be called the FL1; FBS or FBL (as in f***ing big speaker or loudspeaker) was the working title for the DBL (the Damn Big Loudspeaker).

[merlin]

Originally posted by Markus Sauer
Tom, ISTR the Naim electrostats were to be called the FL1; FBS or FBL (as in f***ing big speaker or loudspeaker) was the working title for the DBL (the Damn Big Loudspeaker).

IIRC Markus, they were talking of the FL1 being a stacked pair! Therefore FBL might have been more approriate. Shame we never got to see it.

Thanks for the views guys, I am trying to find that "thing" that makes Naim stand out. For reference, my memories of the LP12 recall an unequalled ability to catch a rif/hook, and follow it throughout the track if need be. How exactly to you listen, or perhaps more importantly, what is it that grabs you in any particular music genre?

[merlin]

Originally posted by Barnie
"
I'd agree with everything Mick has said above but would just add, some people have very busy lives and in their spare time like to enjoy music,

Just to add guys (anti Naim fingers on!), you spend so much time on the internet, that this "busy life" stuff just doesn't wash!

[Barnie]

[i]Originally posted by merlin
Just to add guys (anti Naim fingers on!), you spend so much time on the internet, that this "busy life" stuff just doesn't wash!

Errm, exuse me but I was referring to the many that have, I'm not one of them, I only have two peices of Naim kit, one powers my turntable the other doesn't work and you probably know why that is :D

Having said that I have a feeling things could change very soon, as the service I'm receiving from Naim is second to none and that speaks volumes.

Best regards

Barnie.
http://www.barnies-place.co.uk/

[The Devil]

It's an odd phenomenon, as Paul D said some time ago elsewhere, that the really well-set-up Naim speakers, which sound so wonderful, never seem to be the ones that you are listening to right now!

I've already checked with both ECS and JW, and they're [ECS Stealth clone amps & original Stealth amps] identical except for the casing.

Another odd phenomenon: history rewritten before my very eyes. Great stuff, keep it coming!

Marvellous.

[Alex S]

Hi bub, if Tom can get his SBLs to work as well oop north as he did darn sarf then you should visit to prove that they can indeed work.

The ECS thing is a bit odd - Mr soandso from ECS makes a big play at shows to say that they are different from Stealth not only in the casework. Apparently, Stealths were not regulated whilst the ECSs are. There is no doubt in the minds and ears of the Neat guys that the ECS is an inferior amp to the Stealth and, given that they are not best buddies with JW right now, this is the opposite of what you'd expect them to say from an industry politics pov (of course, they're above all that crap).

[jtc]

If Burntisland gets too cold, come down to 'sunny' Wrexham (LOL, joke) and check out mine, although undoubtedly it is a little less Naim-like these days since the addition of the EA-2.
I've never been to Wrexham before. Burntisland is fun (how did you know I was there, by the way?) and the house is incomparably better than my wee house in Edinburgh was, as the rooms are much bigger and the neighbours friendlier. It never really gets cold there as it's right on the coast, though we do get occasional rain ;) Anyway, I might take you up on that offer sometime :D

I bought a Resolution Audio Opus 21. It's that very rare beastie - a giant-killing cd player that betters players twice or three times its price
Bloody brilliant CDP! I heard one at Adventures In Hi-fi last year, and in my opinion, it's not far behind a CDS2 (with the old XPS). Unfortunately, it doesn't get enough recognition. I reckon it would trounce the CDX2, though.

You're right about the recognition, but I quite like that it's lesser known, and I also like the fact that it is just soooo good for CDX2 money. The only drawback I'd say about the Opus is that the lead that goes between the PSU/Control box and the Transport/DAC box is so short - maybe 18"? - as I'd prefer to have more freedom for placement.

I've defected from my beloved DNM amps to Naim - I got frustrated by the dual volume controls, lack of remote, oddball aesthetics and the continued pressure from my better 'alf, and as we liked the Nait 2 in the second system I have ended up at 52/SC/250 in the space of a six weeks (via 82), though only because the 52/SC and above is the only level at which Naim can offer what I loved about the DNM - i.e. unforced, natural and musical sound - whilst continuing that appealing Naim-ite fun factor. The 82/HC I'm using just now (my 2002 model year 52/SC will arrive in a week or so) is good, but on a final comparison to my 3B Primus/PA3^S pre/power last night (before it was boxed up as I've sold it) the DNM really is still in front, but not by much. I expect the 52/SC/250 to be better than it, and the overall cost of going from DNM to 52/SC/250 will work out at an extra £2k over the return for the DNM (which proved difficult to sell).

I seem to take the path-less-trodden sometimes, but I quite like my new (to me) Naim setup, and more to the point, my nearest & dearest also likes it (the remote makes a big difference to her).

I only wish I could stop that bl@@dy 250 humming when the electric blankets are switched on... :rolleyes:

jtc

[ReJoyce]

Originally posted by mick parry
Most Naim buyers of new kit, probably fall into the top half of the income bracket and are cash rich and time poor. Naim makes it easy and for me at least, has delivered every time.

Regards

Mick

But Mick that is almost certainly true of all of the more expensive brands, in fact more true Naim at least offer a system solution starting at around £3k, that buys you 50% of the entry level MArk Levinson CD player!

There is much more to it that that. A decent dealer will sort out cable worries for you if you don't want the hassle and perhaps this is the biggest difference. Naim dealers have, historically, been real enthusiasts and themselves extemely loyal to the brand. Some of the extreme Naimees are actually extreme <insert dealers name>ees. This all came out of the years when Naim were growing as a company with Linn and a Linn/Naim dealership had a licence to print money, that certainly helps brand loyalty imho. Back then the momentum behind the brand was huge with magazines pretty much dedicated to Linn and Naim gear. Dealers and hence their customers have been very slow to look at alternatives. Often because they handily forget that building a system is harder than plugging company X's preamp into a Naim system and expecting it to work better than the Naim pre it replaced. Also you should never underestimate the sense of well-being that is often found in belonging to a club that looks down on every one else ;->

Cheers

Jason

[Marco]

Originally posted by Alex S

The ECS thing is a bit odd - Mr soandso from ECS makes a big play at shows to say that they are different from Stealth not only in the casework.


Well, he would do, considering at the time of the last show, ECS had just shafted JW big time, there was the threat of legal repercussions, and therefore, quite naturally, ECS wanted to divorce themselves from their connection with Stealth by promoting their amps as being a completely separate entity. The easiest way to do that was to use a slightly different case. If it looks different from the outside, then it's easier to sell that story to Joe public.

Apparently, Stealths were not regulated whilst the ECSs are.


"Apparently" according to whom, Alex? Have you spoken to either ECS or JW regarding this? What Neat are saying means diddlysquat.

There is no doubt in the minds and ears of the Neat guys that the ECS is an inferior amp to the Stealth and, given that they are not best buddies with JW right now, this is the opposite of what you'd expect them to say from an industry politics pov (of course, they're above all that crap).


Alex, may I suggest that before you make such wild assertions you check the integrity of your source of information? My somewhat more reliable sources have indicated, how shall I say, a slightly different take on matters.

Of course, I would hasten to add that none of this makes one iota of difference to my situation. Due to its lack of availability, original Stealth amplification was never an option for me, so I couldn't give a monkey's bollocks which one is the better sounding amp. All that concerns me is that the EA-2 is a considerable upgrade over my 135s, and the music has never sounded better :MILD:

With that in mind, I'll leave you lot to argue the politics amongst yourselves...

Marco.

[domfjbrown]

Originally posted by merlin
Thanks for the views guys, I am trying to find that "thing" that makes Naim stand out. For reference, my memories of the LP12 recall an unequalled ability to catch a rif/hook, and follow it throughout the track if need be.

I think that's a lot of it with me and Naim - the leading edge stuff isn't so much of an issue with my lowly NAIT3, but it DOES seem to pull out rhythms and hooks nicely.

Having the CD5 on home dem this weekend (until tomorrow morning) has increased this - it's probably not neccessarily the BEST CDP for £1200, but it's very well made and I can't dem much else I'd consider, living in Exeter (it's either the CD5, Rega Jupiter, or some godawful crap from Sevenoaks (Arcam - fugedaboutit!)). The CD5 bests my old Rega Planet in every way, but it doesn't force the timing down your neck like the CD5i (not tried at home - too muffled to be a contender for me I'm afraid).

Plus the way everything (ignoring soundstage for now - though that's no worse than the Planet's)) sounds more realistic - vocal inflections, string vibrato, phrasing etc) - on the Naim CD5 comes out is very nice indeed - it holds the attention... I don't think I'll go further down the route for a while though (a pre-power might be nice, but then so might a decent holiday).

I'm definitely in the "time poor" sector of society, though "cash rich" might be pushing it (though I do OK, I can't even look at buying a small flat at the moment)>

Plus getting the CD5 (if I do) means I get a nice spare Chord phono-DIN to use on my tuner ;)

[The Devil]

Marco, JW told me that ECS had downgraded some internal components as well as the case.

They did manage to lop off £2000 from the asking price: they must've cut a few corners.

[Alex S]

Fine Marco, whatever. Enjoy your new amp. The diddlysquatness of Neat extends to them being about the only people who've used Stealth, ECS and DVHX1.2s on the same speakers. I guess their rating of Stealth/1.2 being about equal first (for different reasons) and ECS third means nothing since the MF9s are rather sophisticated and revealing speakers.

[merlin]

Originally posted by The Devil
They did manage to lop off £2000 from the asking price: they must've cut a few corners.

didn't they just lose JW's cut?

[Marco]

Precisely.

[Marco]

Originally posted by Alex S

Fine Marco, whatever. Enjoy your new amp.


Cheers, Alex. Enjoy your new mains. Are you going with the separate 10mm spurs?

The diddlysquatness of Neat extends to them being about the only people who've used Stealth, ECS and DVHX1.2s on the same speakers. I guess their rating of Stealth/1.2 being about equal first (for different reasons) and ECS third means nothing since the MF9s are rather sophisticated and revealing speakers.


Alex, that's fine, but at the end of the day it's only their opinion; not fact, and their opinion makes bugger all difference to me.

Marco.

[Alex S]

So that's amps, now mains.

Yes, hardwired 10mm. Roy fitted the Memera with RCBOs last week - even that's a lot better with just the old spurs.

Because my mains is so polluted downstream I'll use 2 10mm spurs straight into the current drawers, power and sub if I keep it, and then use hardwired 1KVA Ben Duncans for sources etc. A good compromise, hopefully.

[Marco]

Originally posted by jtc

I've never been to Wrexham before. Burntisland is fun (how did you know I was there, by the way?)


Aha, the Marco-boy knows many things... ;)

Mail me whenever you fancy a visit to North Wales.

I know Burntisland reasonably well, as I used to have a few customers up there in one of the industrial estates. Is the old-style Italian cafe that made wonderful ice cream still on the High St? Macaris I think it was called.

You're right about the recognition, but I quite like that it's lesser known, and I also like the fact that it is just soooo good for CDX2 money.


TC, IMO having heard them both, it is considerably better than a CDX2. Btw, have you done anything with your mains set-up? Quite a few of us now have gone the separate dedicated spur route. You're in the ideal situation to try this with moving into a new house - unless you've already decorated!

I've defected from my beloved DNM amps to Naim. - I got frustrated by the dual volume controls, lack of remote, oddball aesthetics and the continued pressure from my better 'alf, and as we liked the Nait 2 in the second system I have ended up at 52/SC/250 in the space of a six weeks (via 82), though only because the 52/SC and above is the only level at which Naim can offer what I loved about the DNM - i.e. unforced, natural and musical sound - whilst continuing that appealing Naim-ite fun factor.


Sensible chap. 52/250 is rather good, especially as you're going for the 'proper' full-on Naim sound generally only available with the Olive gear. The 250 should also drive your Neats better than the DNMs.

I seem to take the path-less-trodden sometimes, but I quite like my new (to me) Naim setup, and more to the point, my nearest & dearest also likes it (the remote makes a big difference to her).


Cool, sounds like a happy ending. Btw, are you still sticking with the QS Ref?

I only wish I could stop that bl@@dy 250 humming when the electric blankets are switched on...


A separate dedicated spur will help eliminate the humming. The EA-2 I'm using is deadly silent (when not in use!) even though it has an absolutely massive F!*k off transformer.

Laters,
Marco.

[wadia-miester]

Originally posted by Marco

even though it has an absolutely massive F!*k off transformer.


Marco, stop deluding yourself, this a proper transformer, and Wm's Belcanto now has 2 of them :cool:


http://www.omigaaudio.co.uk/images/Dec0201.JPG

[merlin]

To be fair Tony, the trannie in the 250 is probably fine for the little amount of power that the amp in question produces.

[The Devil]

Originally posted by merlin
didn't they just lose JW's cut?
Don't know, but according to JW ECS used cheaper internal components than the Stealth. He also told me that the heavy casework on the old Stealth made a huge contribution to the sound of the amplifier.

[jtc]

Hi Marco,

Yes, I've done the spur thing - I have a dedicated Memera 2000AD 6-way CU with 4x32A RCBO spurs (6mm.sq. due to other circumstances) into 4xMK unswitched double sockets - but that may change at some point. No special earthing employed so far, so that's an option for some later date.

52/250 is yet to be setup - I'm at 82/HI/250 right now, but the 82 is (I think) spoken for, and I'll hang onto the HC for a while to see what works best with a prefix. The late model 52/SC arrives next week, or maybe at the end of this week if the banks manage to clear cheques with any degree of efficiency...

No longer have the Neats - moved on to even better speakers, far faster, more detailed and tighter - don't go quite as deep as Gravitas but overall much better - Audiophysic Virgo mkIII, single wired.

250 humming is a pain, but I don't hear it when the music's playing... saying that, I'd prefer it was deadly quiet, but then I am in no rush to change it.

Still have the QS Ref, and have absolutely no plans to ever try Mana again, LP12 or no LP12. QS Ref does just fine, and though I think Fraim is the king of the stand hill, unless some comes my way at an exceptionally low price, I'm sticking with QSR for now...

jtc

[Alex S]

Continuing the ECS debate:

The non-regulation of the original amp is mentioned in Paul Messenger's Stealth review in Hi Fi Choice (issue 199), whilst ECS's own brochure claims full regulation for the ECS EA1/ EA2 amps.

Never mind, the EA2's better than 135s.

[Marco]

Alex, like I said to you once before: Woopie Doo! :p

Now, more importantly, I'm interested to know what difference the R.K.R spurs have made.

Marco.

[Alex S]

Well, I've only put the Mem CU in so far so the upgrade is relatively small; like going from a pair of 135s to an EA2, say. The 10mm arrives Wed so I'll let you know.

[wadia-miester]

Originally posted by Alex S
the upgrade is relatively small; like going from a pair of 135s to an EA2, say.

:lol: :lol: Alex, an astute' observation sir :cool:

[Marco]

Originally posted by jtc

Hi Marco,

Yes, I've done the spur thing - I have a dedicated Memera 2000AD 6-way CU with 4x32A RCBO spurs (6mm.sq. due to other circumstances) into 4xMK unswitched double sockets - but that may change at some point. No special earthing employed so far, so that's an option for some later date.


Excellent. I'd recommend you try the hard-wired route rather than using plugs and sockets; the difference in performance is very noticeable. Furthermore, have you tried using blanks instead of the equipment case fuses? With now having RCBOs, from a safety aspect it's viable for you to do so, and the increase in performance this gives is very significant. You should also look into the earth issue. I run a single separate earth for the dedicated spurs from a series of earth rods in the garden, and this is then daisy-chained to each individual hard-wired hydra via heavy-duty audiophile-grade cable. The difference that makes, particularly in the bass, is very much worth having. IMO, anyone thinking they've 'done the mains thing' by simply having a single spur, and that anything else is superfluous tweakery, is quite frankly deluded in the extreme.

No longer have the Neats - moved on to even better speakers, far faster, more detailed and tighter - don't go quite as deep as Gravitas but overall much better - Audiophysic Virgo mkIII, single wired.


Good choice, I've heard this speaker on a number of occasions and like it very much. It's probably the only German speaker that does real bass and doesn't rip your ears off in the process. Mind you, I also like what Elacs do, particularly in the midrange and treble.

250 humming is a pain, but I don't hear it when the music's playing... saying that, I'd prefer it was deadly quiet, but then I am in no rush to change it.


Since installing separate dedicated spurs, humming has never for me been an issue. Maybe using blanks and 10mm (as opposed to 6mm) cable helps?

Still have the QS Ref, and have absolutely no plans to ever try Mana again, LP12 or no LP12. QS Ref does just fine, and though I think Fraim is the king of the stand hill, unless some comes my way at an exceptionally low price, I'm sticking with QSR for now...


Fair enough, although I desperately disagree with you about Fraim. I think its performance is completely unspectacular considering its cost. Mana? Never say never, TC; stranger things have happened... if you come down, I'll let you hear something that may change your mind ;)

Marco.

[Marco]

Originally posted by Alex S

Well, I've only put the Mem CU in so far so the upgrade is relatively small; like going from a pair of 135s to an EA2, say.


Arf! :D

The 10mm arrives Wed so I'll let you know.


By all means do that. Btw, are you still using the Bussmans? You may want to review the situation once the 10mm spurs are in place.

Marco.

[jtc]

have you tried using blanks instead of the equipment case fuses? With now having RCBOs, from a safety aspect it's viable for you to do so, and the increase in performance this gives is very significant.
Not yet; where does one get blanks for equipment, and is it something that only applies to power amps, or should the Supercap get 'blanked' as well? What about the Armageddon?

The fuses are uprated - 15A in the 250, 10A in the cd player - but I haven't done the 82/HC yet as I plan to sell it on and it's going to be disconnected very soon now. I'll put a bigger fuse on the Supercap when its warranty runs out (later this year) or perhaps before - depends on how Naim view this should anything go wrong.

Anyway, moving on from that, the hard-wiring is my intended next step, but the problem I'm facing is finding a neat solution to the blanking plate/cable thing; the hard work (routing the spurs and fitting the CU) is done, so really the Hydra ought to be really easy. My only concerns are cosmetic (blanking plate/cable) and how one should attach the junction blocks for maximum safety.

jtc

[Paul Ranson]

The non-regulation of the original amp is mentioned in Paul Messenger's Stealth review in Hi Fi Choice (issue 199), whilst ECS's own brochure claims full regulation for the ECS EA1/ EA2 amps.
The ECS web site http://www.ecsamplifiers.co.uk doesn't seem to mention PSU regulation. And the top-off photo on the home page shows no evidence of PSU regulation. FWIW.

Paul

[Marco]

Quite.

[Marco]

Mail me at abstractimage@bigpic.fsnet.co.uk, and we'll discuss the mains thing further.

Cheers.

Marco.

[Alex S]

Maybe they realised their mistake (hope you didn't get one of those middle-period ECS's Marco) or maybe brochures tell you a bit more than web sites.

[Paul Ranson]

OTOH if that picture is of an EA-2, and it's regulated, then it isn't a 180W power amp....

PSU regulation for power amps is not a trivial exercise (it's arguably an unnecessary one though.) so it seems unlikely that it would come and go so casually.

The only problem for me with the Stealths is that blue LED... I've not seen a powered EA-x, perhaps they've fixed it.

Paul

[Marco]

Originally posted by Alex S

Maybe they realised their mistake (hope you didn't get one of those middle-period ECS's Marco) or maybe brochures tell you a bit more than web sites.


Alex, you're really trying hard aren't you...

Btw, the EA-2 I have is brand new. Oh, and the transformer looks as big as the one in the Bel canto. Mind you, WM has two of them, which I suppose makes up for smaller appendages elsewhere ;)

Paul,

The blue light looks sexy and is subtly executed.

Marco.

[penance]

back to insulting members members again:rolleyes:

[wadia-miester]

Originally posted by Marco
Alex, you're really trying hard aren't you...

Btw, the EA-2 I have is brand new. Oh, and the transformer looks as big as the one in the Bel canto. Mind you, WM has two of them, which I suppose makes up for smaller appendages elsewhere ;)

Paul,

The blue light looks sexy and is subtly executed.

Marco.

Marco, I hope those tablets take effect soon, because the 'white coat squad' also works on 3 strikes and your out :D and broadmoor's form of corrective theropy is 12 hours a day of trivista sir, I see the blue light connection though, becareful, it's the start of the slippery slope to abscurity. and that is almost terminal to an attention seeker such as yourself. Wm

[The Devil]

180 wpc seems a little wimpy considering the price. Good for sensitive speakers in a small room, I guess. No wonder Stealth struggled to drive the passive ATC 100s, and with the hardware downgrading of the ECS amps, even more care with partnering speakers might well be necessary.

[Alex S]

Actually, the Hi-Fi+ one did shut down rather often; probably the sight of RG so nothing to worry about there. Trouble is the blue light starting flashing and I don't want Marco to worry unduly. Its imperative that the 0.2 amp quick blow fuse is kept in place though: sadly, Memera RCBOs just can't keep up with all the ECS transformer mods.

[Markus S]

Originally posted by Paul Ranson
PSU regulation for power amps is not a trivial exercise (it's arguably an unnecessary one though.)

...

The only problem for me with the Stealths is that blue LED...

Hi Paul,

why is PSU regulation arguably unnecessary?

And if your only problem with the ECS is the colour of the LED, I'm sure you're handy enough with a soldering iron to fix that problem.

Markus

[Steven Toy]

I am sure Marco was only jesting as I know he is not lookng to fall out with WM.

Marco behave yourself ;)

[Steven Toy]

Last Feb I was at JTC's place and I phoned Marco. He mentioned the little Italian café then.

[The Devil]

Nice one, Steve.

[Marco]

Steve, I'm quite sure WM can take a harmless bit of banter; he dishes it out often enough himself.

Btw, mail me when you want to come over for a listen.

Marco.

P.S Alex, you're a hoot!

[mick parry]

Quote

Re: Merlin

But Mick that is almost certainly true of all of the more expensive brands, in fact more true Naim at least offer a system solution starting at around £3k, that buys you 50% of the entry level MArk Levinson CD player!

There is much more to it that that. A decent dealer will sort out cable worries for you if you don't want the hassle and perhaps this is the biggest difference. Naim dealers have, historically, been real enthusiasts and themselves extemely loyal to the brand. Some of the extreme Naimees are actually extreme <insert dealers name>ees. This all came out of the years when Naim were growing as a company with Linn and a Linn/Naim dealership had a licence to print money, that certainly helps brand loyalty imho. Back then the momentum behind the brand was huge with magazines pretty much dedicated to Linn and Naim gear. Dealers and hence their customers have been very slow to look at alternatives. Often because they handily forget that building a system is harder than plugging company X's preamp into a Naim system and expecting it to work better than the Naim pre it replaced. Also you should never underestimate the sense of well-being that is often found in belonging to a club that looks down on every one else ;->

Cheers

Jason


Jason

I think this posting says it all. Good dealers are Naim enthusiasts.

Finally, Naim owners do not look down on everyone else and well you know it.

Regards

Mick

[merlin]

Originally posted by mick parry
Good dealers are Naim enthusiasts.


Mick

Now Mick, I know you are probably havng a laugh but my experience of Naim dealers is quite the contrary. Probably the most arrogant bunch of money grabbing shites this industry as produced, who think it is the customers' "honour" to visit their establishment.

I'd say the best dealers I have ever visited, purely from an enthusiasm and friendliness perspective, all share one thing in common - they don't sell Naim.

I feel a trip to the Jeremy Balwins and John Roberts of this world would be one of the best uses of your time in future, you'd be amazed what you could learn:D

[Barnie]

"I feel a trip to the Jeremy Balwins and John Roberts of this world would be one of the best uses of your time in future, you'd be amazed what you could learn" merlin.

No! No! don't do it Mick JR will try and tell you your Naim kit is as cheap as chips and offer you a few quid for it.:rolleyes:

Regards

Barnie.
http://barnies-place.co.uk/lounge/index.php?act=ST&f=7&t=16&

[merlin]

Don't go there Girlfriend;)

[sideshowbob]

Now Mick, I know you are probably havng a laugh but my experience of Naim dealers is quite the contrary. Probably the most arrogant bunch of money grabbing shites this industry as produced, who think it is the customers' "honour" to visit their establishment.

I'd say the best dealers I have ever visited, purely from an enthusiasm and friendliness perspective, all share one thing in common - they don't sell Naim.


This is a bit sweeping. I've had pretty regular dealings with Cornflake re. my ATC gear and they're an excellent outfit, couldn't be more helpful, and they sell a lot of Naim gear.

Just over a year ago I bought a bargain s/h NAC42.5/110 combo which is still doing sterling service as the second system, and Grahams were exceptionally helpful, giving it a look over and swapping over the phono boards FOC even though I've never bought anything from them.

-- Ian

[mick parry]

Does the fact that you fact that you do not like Naim, make you a lousy dealer ?

Regards

Mick

[Paul Ranson]

why is PSU regulation arguably unnecessary?
Usually a power amp has power supply rejection, it generates its output with reference to its input within the capacity of its power rails but without reference to them. So the ripple implicit in a transformer/rectifier/capactior setup doesn't appear on the output (much...).

A conventional regulator for this arrangement is much like a power amp, you give it a constant input reference voltage and it generates and holds the desired output voltage without reference to the raw supply (pretty much).

The reason power amps rarely use regulated power supplies is because of the currents and voltages involved. The regulator is about as expensive as as the power amp itself, requires as much design input but from a much smaller pool of experience, and tends towards wild oscillations when driving anything other than a resistor...

A power amp with a regulated supply is like two power amps in series, the raw supply passes through a device controlled by an error signal, then through another device controlled by another error signal, and then to the loudspeaker. It might be worth considering combining the error signals, and spending more effort on the power amp itself rather than on the supply.

OTOH there are some very fine amps with regulated PSUs, engineering anything is all about compromises rather than abstract purism.

I think one of the best arguments for regulated PSUs is to implement non-intrusive current limiting and DC offset protection. You can shut the PSU down in the event of a short circuit rather than have relays or other interference in the signal path. This is the kind of functionality that DIY amps can live without, but real customers probably get quite annoyed when their new amp goes up in smoke during installation because they were careless with the speaker wires. And then because they didn't quite believe it they blow their speakers up too....

Paul

[Barnie]

"Don't go there Girlfriend" merlin

Well you started it:D

[bottleneck]

everythings going well in the shire gandalf

http://www.nonprofitpages.com/sbplayers/Season-2000-2001/Hobbit.png

[wadia-miester]

I've been reliably informed that Marco, would easily have made a stunning hobbit, without the aid of 3 hours in make up too, lost vocation there I feel :rolleyes:

[merlin]

Originally posted by mick parry
Does the fact that you fact that you do not like Naim, make you a lousy dealer ?

Regards

Mick

Nothing to do with it Mick, and to be fair my sweeping statement was in response to an equally ridiculous statement:p

[Barnie]

Originally posted by merlin
[B]Now Mick, I know you are probably havng a laugh but my experience of Naim dealers is quite the contrary. Probably the most arrogant bunch of money grabbing shites this industry as produced, who think it is the customers' "honour" to visit their establishment.


This is how I was treated at JRs place, I thought his rooms there looked like an indian trinket shop, you know all gold and silver shiny things that sound like s***:D

Best regards

Barnie
PS I don't know how you've got the gall to call yourself merlin:rolleyes:

[michaelab]

Originally posted by merlin
Now Mick, I know you are probably havng a laugh but my experience of Naim dealers is quite the contrary. Probably the most arrogant bunch of money grabbing shites this industry as produced, who think it is the customers' "honour" to visit their establishment.
That's precisely my experience from the only Naim dealer I've ever been to. It's the main representative in Portugal and the shop is called "Attitude" - says it all really :)

Barnie - merlin's nickname is from the speakers he uses (Merlins) and is nothing to do with Arthurian legends ;)

Michael.

[Robbo]

Now Mick, I know you are probably havng a laugh but my experience of Naim dealers is quite the contrary. Probably the most arrogant bunch of money grabbing shites this industry as produced, who think it is the customers' "honour" to visit their establishment.

I too have had this experience with a number of Naim dealers, however other Naim dealers have not been like this. I guess it's just a case of finding a good dealer.

I can recall one experience with a Naim dealer about 10 years ago after I had demmed a CDI/72/hicap/140. He rang me up at work a week or so after the dem and had a go at me for not buying the system, even though I explained that the sound wasnt really for me. Unbelievable:rolleyes:

[merlin]

Originally posted by michaelab
Barnie - merlin's nickname is from the speakers he uses (Merlins) and is nothing to do with Arthurian legends ;)

Michael.

A common misunderstanding Michael, it actually refers to a manufacturer of fine titanium works of art, who themselves take their name from a graceful bird of prey.

As the company in question has now sold out, and I have switched allegience to their offshoot, a custom build specialist, I really should change my moniker.

[bottleneck]

It gladdens the heart

http://www.merlinbike.com/images/bikes/xlm.jpg

[Barnie]

[i]Originally posted by michaelab
Barnie - merlin's nickname is from the speakers he uses (Merlins) and is nothing to do with Arthurian legends ;)


Oh! I see, apologies for that then merlin ;)

Best regards

Barnie
http://www.barnies-place.co.uk/

http://myth-and-magic.org

[Barnie]

[i]Originally posted by Robbo
I too have had this experience with a number of Naim dealers, however other Naim dealers have not been like this. I guess it's just a case of finding a good dealer.


Yes, maybe this is a more balanced view point, there are 'Bad Eggs' in every walk of life :rolleyes:

Best regards

Barnie.
http://www.barnies-place.co.uk/

[merlin]

Originally posted by bottleneck
It gladdens the heart

http://www.merlinbike.com/images/bikes/xlm.jpg

Nice piccy Chris? Is it your rig? Sadly now Merlin are owned by Litespeed, it seems some of the magic has gone. The old Merlin crew are still doing the busines though, check out

Ti Art! (http://www.sevencycles.com)

I didn't know you were a demon of dirt!

[bottleneck]

Hi mike

Short memory chap? we had a chat about it a few months ago..

Unfortunately not my sled, I havent got disc brakes on my merlin, and its a Taiga not an XLM.

You ride a Ti cross country bike too dont you? Ive forgotten which? Litespeed?

Havent ridden in about 4 years due to back indjury - mainly swim now. I keep the bike though, one day I'll take it up again.

I still day-dream of hamsterly forrest ... :)

oh well, back to boxes of electronics ! :rolleyes:

[merlin]

Too right with the short memory!! I vaguely recalled but wasn't sure.

I've got a Seven Sola (as in the link), which was nice as it is custom built to my body measurements and is so comfortable, I'd recommend custom to anyone with back problems.

We'll have to get you out in the Chilterns again!

Still, we've gone far OT.

Back on track, I know that Naim have slightly changed direction sonically speaking over the past few years. Do you guys feel this has diluted the attraction somewhat?

[Marco]

Yes.

[mick parry]

No

Regards

Mick

[Marco]

If you're deaf ;)

[Barnie]

I saw your post before that edit, please calm down and think twice before posting in the future.

Barnie
http://www.barnies-place.co.uk/

[The Devil]

What about the XPS2 & new Burndy? A tour de force, n'est-ce pas? Big transformer, 'n' all.

Rollin'.

[penance]

Originally posted by Barnie
I saw your post before that edit, please calm down and think twice before posting in the future.

Barnie


er

kettle - pot - black type thing there me thinks

[Barnie]

"er

kettle - pot - black type thing there me thinks"

Now that made me laugh coming from you of all people:rolleyes:

[penance]

and why would that be Barnie?

[Barnie]

"and why would that be Barnie?"

Work it out for yourself PRaT

[penance]

gee thanks for the prat statement
winning friends?
i realy have no idea what your reffering to, if theres an instance where the kettle saying applies to myself, please do tell

[Barnie]

"winning friends?"

You only need one friend in this life, anyone that needs all people to like them is probably pretty insecure.

If you've taken a dislike to me, which from where I'm sitting seems to be the case, I've no interest in winning you over, it's up to you penance?

Regards

Barnie.
http://www.barnies-place.co.uk/

[penance]

no dislike, i just passed a comment
confused by your antagonistic reaction tbh
explanation of why your so keen to call someone a prat without any reason?, or are you just an agro type guy?

plenty of friends in real life, but thx for caring:)

[Barnie]

"confused by your antagonistic reaction "

You show me one post here or anywhere else where you have been anything but antagonistic towards me?

BTW My comment to Mick was lighthearted, do you see Mick complaining?

Regards

Barnie.
http://www.barnies-place.co.uk/

[penance]

i believe i have only posted here, maybe PFM
passed comment on your post that seemed in keeping with most other peoples opinions

Why answer a question with a question Barnie, are you hideing something?
Be an honest man and answer my question, go on, you know it makes sense!

[merlin]

Barnie,

just an observation, but wherever you've been lately, you seem to have got into scrapes. Maybe a period of not knocking people would be good, you can come across as somewhat vindictive.

I know the problem, I suffered the same. But once many inmates had met me in the flesh, they realised I really was a twat and took no further umbrage;)

[julian2002]

I know the problem, I suffered the same. But once many inmates had met me in the flesh, they realised I really was a twat and took no further umbrage

rofl... well said merlin ;)

barnie, take a chill pill mate, life's too short.

cheers


julian

[penance]

Merlin
i think we may be simliar:D

[Marco]

So what did Mick say that was so offensive?

It's not normally like him. Are you ok old chap?

Marco.

[mick parry]

My original response was


No

Regards

Mick....who has more Naim than Marco

PS this is to test if he gets wound up.


Thats it

Regards

Mick

[Barnie]

"i believe i have only posted here, maybe PFM
passed comment on your post that seemed in keeping with most other peoples opinions"

Pah! so that's your justification eh! bloody sheep....

[penance]

Mick
i dont see anything wrong with that post

maybe Barnie has comunication problems:confused:

[penance]

Originally posted by Barnie
"i believe i have only posted here, maybe PFM
passed comment on your post that seemed in keeping with most other peoples opinions"

Pah! so that's your justification eh! bloody sheep....

Barnie
paranoid delusion is a recognised problem, there are people to help you.
If thats not your problem, explain your otburst like an adult!

[Barnie]

"Barnie
paranoid delusion is a recognised problem, there are people to help you."

Yes and the sheep will soon be ready for shearing:D

"explain your otburst like an adult!"

So you think you can issue orders as well....now where's that damn sheep dog..........

[penance]

well, sorry to say Barnie
But you have serious problems, you need help

you can't even justify your own outburst can you? very childish!

you just rely on some come back that has no context here

maybe your a sheep cause you have speakers that other people use
or maybe all the sheep are right and you are in the wrong

or then again, maybe you do just have serious problem, go and get some help, you need it

try coming back with something your lil mind, instead of quoteing and makeing up some 5 year old comeback:rolleyes:

fyi: sheepdogs take orders and dont give them, you are slightly behind eh!

[Barnie]

Just look at your scribblings, who is it that's loosing their cool? Perhaps you should take your own advice eh!

"sheepdogs take orders and dont give them, you are slightly behind eh!"

Yes, my orders to round up the sheep........now who's behind?

Barnie.
http://www.barnies-place.co.uk/

[Robbo]

My dad is bigger than your dad.

[sideshowbob]

Originally posted by Robbo
My dad is bigger than your dad.

LOL. My speakers are bigger than yours, and you're probably the only person I can say that of :D

-- Ian

[penance]

LoL Robbo

Barnie, i fail to see your reason with this, apart from very stupid posts!
You obviously can not justify yourself by your blatent refusal to explain your original come back - hence you are not worth the bother

why dont you trot back to your paranoid little den where you have your own herd of sheep to lick you arse and believe your BS.

BTW - they are all out to get you, one day they will catch you and who knows..............

[Marco]

Originally posted by mick parry

My original response was


No

Regards

Mick....who has more Naim than Marco

PS this is to test if he gets wound up.


Thats it

Regards

Mick


Mick, that seems fine to me - no probs. But why did you think such a completely innocuous comment would wind me up?

Regards,
Marco.

P.S Barnie, are you ok? You do seem unusually confrontational.

[mick parry]

Quote...."Mick, that seems fine to me - no probs. But why did you think such a completely innocuous comment would wind me up?"

Well it could have been the wrong time of the month or if Wrexham got thrashed over the weekend.

Regards

Ever so nice Mick

[wadia-miester]

Arh the usual suspects, inviting us to indulge in their playground fantasies, now then gentleman & marco, choose your weapons, 5 levels of mana or sbls' :D face back to back, when bub drops the 'wooly hanky' I want you to walk ten paces then turn and press play on your 'expensive beat boxes' and the last man standing (from not laughing) is the winner, a packet of wine gums and a 2004 naim catalogue, so a worth fighting for prize guys :)

[penance]

LoL

Can i stab 'im with me copper foil caps??:D

[Barnie]

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[wadia-miester]

Maybe as Mick's ventured into the woods, I reckon some of you hard core sheep ought to come out of the flock and listen to music the Z/g way, I reckon a lot of you might be in for a shock, go on, go on, go on, go on, you know secretly you want to, the flock is losing it's appeal (so I'm told, by more disgruntled memebers that you same "Come by!!!" Too)
Got to be worth a try, might even hand cuff you to the sheppard even more, there is life beyond briks, sbls & 250's you know, and it's rather good too. Wm

[Marco]

WM, what happens if you've already got a 2004 Naim catalogue?

Can I get a Bel Canto instead? (I know it's worth less, but it'll do).

Marco.

[ReJoyce]

Originally posted by Marco
Can I get a Bel Canto instead? (I know it's worth less, but it'll do).

Marco.

Didn't realise the cost of a component was the best way of assessing its sound quality. Yet again Marco has shown us all how little we know. <<<exits to sound of one hand clapping>>>

Cheers

Jason

[Marco]

Hilarious!

Shouldn't you be typing some articles for hi-fi plus or something instead?

Marco.

[The Devil]

Temper.

How golden those non-ferrous QS ref days seem now, in retrospect.

Nice one, Narco.

[Barnie]

I see Bub has now thought twice about one of his posts on this thread and actualy deleted the whole post. I wonder if Marco would have thought that one Hilarious! eh Bub! :D

Best regards

Barnie.
http://www.barnies-place.co.uk/

[The Devil]

Yes Barnie, I'm attempting to live up to a two-dimensional stereotype of my choosing. Rational logician scientist. Boring.

[julian2002]

james,
i thought you were...
doctor: always about a week behind on sleep, dangerously out of it on a lethal cocktail of self prescribed drugs and alcohol. please be more consistent in future...
cheers


julian

[The Devil]

Well, you can fool some of the people some of the time. An early night is now about 12.30, I blame the music habit, but really it's me.

[ReJoyce]

Originally posted by Marco
Hilarious!

Shouldn't you be typing some articles for hi-fi plus or something instead?

Marco.

Just finished one thanks for asking. It was only a cheap box so obviously sounded crap, much worse than one that was more expensive.


Cheers

Jason

[The Devil]

I hope that you removed the fuse, plugged it into a separate mains spur, and finally set it ablaze. Failure to take these simple steps will result in a severe impairment in your ability to really enjoy the musical flow and groove, like wot I do.

Furthermore, and moreover [cont page 94]

[ReJoyce]

Originally posted by The Devil
... plugged it into ...

Plugged it into? Plugged it into!?!?! What are you babbling about man? The thing had to be hardwired to the taps of the 40kV to 240V transformer I have in the lounge. I know they are usually found up electric poles, but this was a snip at £10k. Problem is I have had it now for 6 months and it is only just running in (that and teh pervasive smell of PCBs and the hum). I have periods where the system sounds shite, but this must be run in because when I remember how much money I have spent I realise it must sound fantastic. I know for a fact that I'm not just adapting because I can remember perfectly the sound I had 6 months ago ;->

Cheers

Jason

[penance]

Jason
10K and you even cryo'd it yet:rolleyes:
thats why it hums!

[wadia-miester]

Jason, are you a touched stressed this afternoon?, most unlike you to be distracted, hopefully the clown factory will cease & disapate into a harmless wet mist. Wm

[The Devil]

Jason, you are not taking my posts seriously enough. Why does everyone treat me with such disrespect? You may not know this, but I happen to be a very [cont page 94]