Another pointless Mana debate

[The Devil]

I believe that a lot of high-end hi-fi is sold primarily on the looks. The jewellery approach.

The opinions on this forum are from people who are no doubt well-meaning, and most of them have no agenda. There is no substitute for a home demo and I would suggest you find a dealer who is prepared to let you borrow some kit for a week or ten days.

I use active ATC 100 monitors, and I have never heard any speakers which sound better, in fact the vast majority sound a hell of a lot worse. I would recommend them wholeheartedly, they are quite expensive, but a bargain at the same time as you get the amplifier & crossover built-in.

There is a review of the active ATC 150 monitors in "The Collection" (a HFC publication out this month). The reviewer rather liked them. They do make domestic hi-fi speakers sound a bit crap in comparison.

[analoguekid]

I believe that a lot of high-end hi-fi is sold primarily on the looks. The jewellery approach.

The opinions on this forum are from people who are no doubt well-meaning, and most of them have no agenda. There is no substitute for a home demo and I would suggest you find a dealer who is prepared to let you borrow some kit for a week or ten days.

I use active ATC 100 monitors, and I have never heard any speakers which sound better, in fact the vast majority sound a hell of a lot worse. I would recommend them wholeheartedly, they are quite expensive, but a bargain at the same time as you get the amplifier & crossover built-in.

There is a review of the active ATC 150 monitors in "The Collection" (a HFC publication out this month). The reviewer rather liked them. They do make domestic hi-fi speakers sound a bit crap in comparison.

James we could never accuse you of buying hifi jewellrey could we?

As to your comments, I was just offering an opinion based on what I heard, but I would always advocate a home demo as an essential part of the buying process, especially for something so expensive, your other comments are as single minded as usual though, and here's me thinking you've mellowed a bit, as for ATC, yes they are nice, but again they are not the be all and end all, and "hifi" speake3rs can and do make them sound crap especially when you consider that the amplification in your speakers is not the best around, if you take the fact that passive 100's would cost around £4k then the £4k they have spent on the active amplification could be bettered by seperate powers IMHO, You also have to remember that hifi is a personal hobby and those that live with a partner have there views to consider as well, lets face it ATC 100's look like PA monitors and we have a hard time as it is convincing said partners that the car priced speakers may be the dogs whotsits but if they are ugly they will not be allowed in the house, without a full scale domestic war.

I also seem to remeber that before you bought your speeks you demo'ed a non mana'd pair and were not that impressed (your words) so did you take a leap of faith that mana would work with them just cause JW had them on Mana? As i see it if mana makes such a difference how did you know that you were gonna like the differences they offered for this speaker with out hearing them on said stands? :)

BTW when are you free, fancy a sesh, gotta let you see that rush DVD and you could even see what you think of my cans set up.

[The Devil]

Hi Paul,

Yes it would be good to meet up again, give me a ring.

No, I haven't mellowed re the ATCs. They do things that most speakers cannot even attempt, and if they did attempt those things, they'd lose a drive unit or two. I have never heard ANY domestic loudspeaker system even approach the sophistication, dynamic range and clarity of the ATC actives.

On their factory stands, the ATCs sounded pretty good compared with my Mana-mounted NAP 135s and Epos ES22s, but they weren't in the same league as JW's phase 11 Briks. I thought long and hard about it, nearly backed out of the deal, but Paul Duerden, and others who I trust, persuaded me to try them on Mana. JW brought them up to my place, set them up, and the rest is history. He was prepared to take them away again if I didn't like them.

P.S. I should add that when I heard them on the factory stands at Jack's place, they were fed by a Mark Levinson No 39 CDP/preamp. This is not (IMO) a very good objet, falling firmly into the "jewellery" category.

[analoguekid]

James

I knew you hadn't mellowed re your speaks what I meant was mellowed re your strong opinions, you have to understand that others have different tastes in musical presentations, any way I like d your speaks but I don't think I would set them up the same way as you as to me they don't have the same texture as what i'm getting but this could be the mana effect, Big Tony described the mana effect as bleaching and personally I agree with him, the only thing I prefer from your speakers compared to mine is the low bass, but then your driver is 12" and mine only 8" but as with others things this is only MY opinion, and I know that yours is different, but yer still good company. BTW when you come over don't mention the M word please:), I'll give you a ring at home tonight.

Paul

[The Devil]

Hi Paul,

Don't take this the wrong way, it's meant to be lighthearted...

I know that that is what you think about the ATCs. I mind about as much as someone telling me that their clapped-out Fiesta is better than my BMW. Tony (IMO) doesn't have a clue, but what he does have is a business agenda. Although I haven't heard his system, other trustworthy ears have...not pretty, allegedly.

Speak soon.

[julian2002]

paul,
it would be a sad day indeed if bub ever did mellow. it would be a bit like osama bin laden saying that america had some good points. only without the dead bodies. ;)
cheers


julian

[analoguekid]

Bub I'm not some willy waving, insecure prat that needs reassurance, and take what you say as your opinion even if you meant is as fact, I like what my system does anbd thats all that matters, I havn't heard Tony's system so can't comment, but I'm sure it sounds good to him, as to wether Tony has a clue or not, my comment was said as when looking for the words to describe what I meant, then what he said kinda described what I heard.

The reason I thought youhad mellowed as there have been a few threads where people have made comments asking about Mana and such and I thought your replies to be well balanced and not with your useuall zeal, glad to see (from your last post) that you haven't changed afterall, we need a nemesis and having discussions like in the past does give a bit of entertianment, keep up the good work.

Ju :D:D:D:D

[The Devil]

Paul, everything on the forums is opinion.

I think that quite possibly part of your problem with the sound of my system is that you've only just shelled out megabucks on those ART things and the Bow stuff. In your place I would possibly feel the same way. Brand loyalty is very understandable if you have spent a lot of money. It can be improved though.

I really don't know what you and Big Tony mean by "texture". Do you mean "timbre", or what?

[analoguekid]

James now I know your toungue is definately in yer cheek, besides I'm sure I paid less han you for what i believe to be a superior sound, Maybe its yer 52 but as to texture, kinda hard to put in words, what I mean exactly, I'll try and let you hear what i mean, but of course we are never gonna agree no matter what.

I return one of yer quotes "Brand loyalty is understandable James, if ytou have spent a lot of money, It can be improved though" :D

[wadia-miester]

Bleaching/leeching/removal of trailing note body and most of the music, yep that about covers it. texture removal service plus stunning looks get ****
I believe ATC's are great monitors, nothing more to me they sound better passive (off board active) with decent amps driving them. I believe they did bass as well then

[joel]

Bleaching/leeching/removal of trailing note body and most of the music, yep that about covers it. texture removal service plus stunning looks get ****
This seems to be something that often results from too much global negative feedback. THe plus side of this is often more "boogie factor" ;)
Of course your hifis are in a different league entirely to my impoverished "Jap Crap" so I will bow out at this juncture. Sayonara.

[The Devil]

Heh heh. If you think that you have a 'superior sound' we will definitely not agree! They are not even in the same league, Paul. You do talk a good game though! As does W_M with his trailing note nonsense.

This is the wonderful thing about audio: you can say any old blox you like and no-one can argue because it's your opinion and that is that. My opinion is that no hi-fi is any great use without Mana, so put that in your pipes.

Why pick on the 52, btw? One of the world's best preamplifiers, by common consent, or am I missing something?

I know that Mana is what you need, there's no argument that your floor is full of bass, or is there?

[analoguekid]

James you might like your system better but as to not being in the same league then I think that's you that's kidding yerself, or did you mean that yours is a few leagues below mine, but you prefer it that way?

The 52 is typical Naim House sound, which I'm sure by common consent, is not for everyone, and yes texture is what you are missing as described above by Tony.

As to my floor resonating with Bass well how will mana stop airborne bass as that is what makes the whole house resonatre as demonstrated, when you were here we did play kinda loud, and I'm sure at more sane levels I can show you what I mean by texture, as to mana, well M aint gonna give on that, so no point even bothering, besides who would you argue with if i bought mana, (everyone else?) :D


James could you kindly wait till peeps have finished posting before doing any edits, it's another of your annoying habits, Don't you have any clinics today? :)

[The Devil]

I think that the point about the 52 is that it doesn't suffer the traditional Naim problems, but there you go.

What if your "texture" was my "overhang/time smear"?

Mana will prevent/ameliorate the bass which is being transferred directly into your floor by your speakers.

You've heard the bass in my room (deeper and louder than in your room), and felt the lack of it in the suspended wooden floor. How do you think my gear can do that? Magic?

[analoguekid]

I'm not denieing the lackof bass in yer floor James but our houses are so different If i removed bass from floor I would still have problem with airborne due to stud partiton walls, as to your question re texture, No I don't think this is what we mean, and if it is then If Mana removes this as well then i'll put up with my bass as it is, as I said I like the way my system sounds, only you think it is lacking, everyone else (whose opinion I trust) seems to think it is great the way it is.

So I propose if you think My system needs mana (when others don't) then I'll let you bring your own mana when you come over, I'm sure I could compromise for a few hours, anything to keep a friend happy. :D

[The Devil]

I'm just advising. You would be very surprised indeed at how little airborne bass gets into the house structure if you can stop the direct speaker/floor interaction.

But I won't dismantle my system to prove a point, it's completely up to you. If you are happy with it the way it is, that's OK with me!

[wadia-miester]

Ok James asked a fair question
Here is my take on the Texture & Timbre (both could be wrong, however I tink you'll get the jist)
Timbre<> the sounding of instruments and vocals as precieved to be by indivduals reference, IE When comparing drums (rimshots/kick drums/hi-hats) I use my own reference of myself playing a drum kit in a rehearsal room, now this may sound different to some at a concert I agree entirely, I'm within 2/3 of the struck object others maybe 20-50ft or long away so the note has time to form fully.
Vocals correct tonal palette and range, If for example Nora Jones is singing, it should be a female vocalist that covers maybe 3/4 octaves, not a male saprono on speed.
Texture<>Body/solidity of image/presence/ richness of the whole sound, not a thin and veiled presentation thats just quick.
It should give that In the real in the room artist is playing for me sound that you want to reach out an touch, it should extent for the whole audiable frequency spectrum.
Remember when you swopped from the cds2 to the LP12, (which was better) what do you define as the differences there James?

[The Devil]

I think the differences are very difficult to describe, Tony. I know that my system is one of the most realistic-sounding systems that I have ever heard, i.e. it sounds like the performers are in the room. I put this down to good room acoustics & size, good mains, good kit, and a lot of Mana.

[merlin]

Oh yes, willy waving and potential brawl! Can I get involved?

Most monitors are designed to be placed at the height of a mixing desk - not a sofa or floor. Raising the to this height will give the correct spectral balance and reduce floor interaction. Raising them further will reduce floor interaction even further usually making them leaner than intended. It isn't rocket science.

[analoguekid]

I'm glad yer back James was getting kinda quite without our resident "whipping boy"

I'm sure even Penance will remove you from his ignore list soon:)

[wadia-miester]

James,
For me on that day we came, the LP12 was far superior ( I know its changed since), for me the TT had a lot more Presence/texture and real sounding with bvetter solidity, the cds2 sounded like tin whistle by comparsion, so as you were using the 52 at the time, one could only conclude that the cds2 was the culprit

[The Devil]

Most monitors are designed to be placed at the height of a mixing desk - not a sofa or floor. Raising the to this height will give the correct spectral balance and reduce floor interaction. Raising them further will reduce floor interaction even further usually making them leaner than intended. It isn't rocket science.
Bass has become deeper, clearer and louder at phase 11, so they are less 'lean' than when they were lower down.

Mana is about sinking out cabinet colorations, and isolating the speakers from incoming vibrations.

How did you get on with your Mana purchase Merlin?

[analoguekid]

Yeah James but your speakers would be too high for Robert Wadlow's desk, if you get anymore mana your gonna need marker lights on them as planes flying into glasgow soemtimes pass quite near your abode.

BTW Cloreen on HFC forum has been asking for ya http://forum.hifichoice.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=12120

[The Devil]

Hi Tony,

No argument from me that the TT is/was better than the CDP. But if Mana 'bleaches the texture', and the TT, pre and ATCs were all on Mana... then, er, the TT should have sounded 'bleached', too.

Anyway, we have all passed a lot of water since then.

I think if you heard it now you would be gobsmacked.

[joel]

Bass has become deeper, clearer and louder at phase 11, so they are less 'lean' than when they were lower down.
You've swapped floor bounce for ceiling bounce and now have the woofers at ear height.
Seems like I'm back in this thread.

[analoguekid]

You've swapped floor bounce for ceiling bounce and now have the woofers at ear height.
Seems like I'm back in this thread.


ROFLMAO :D:D:D:D:D:D

[penance]

I'm sure even Penance will remove you from his ignore list soon:)

he aint worth wasting mouse clicks on

I can now sit happy in the knowledge that i have a far superior setup, with out the need to use piper alpha for support.All that, and i dont have to see the inane drivel/small member waving
:)

[The Devil]

You've swapped floor bounce for ceiling bounce and now have the woofers at ear height.

The ceiling is 13 feet high, the top of the speakers are about 6 feet high, leaving a 7-foot gap between tweeter and ceiling. There is no ceiling effect in my room, that is why hi-fi systems sound very good in there, I've tried three different ones.

[kermit]

Merlin said
"Raising the to this height will give the correct spectral balance and reduce floor interaction. Raising them further will reduce floor interaction even further usually making them leaner than intended. It isn't rocket science."

My thoughts exactly .

James said
"Bass has become deeper, clearer and louder at phase 11, so they are less 'lean' than when they were lower down."

I wonder if this is due to the fact that your speakers are getting closer to the ceiling and are now being reinforced by the ceiling instead of the floor ?

edited to add ,
I seem to be a bit slow of the mark
note to self - must learn to type with more than one finger .

[analoguekid]

Andy what happens when you use the ignore thing, does it show you that he's replied but censors what he wrote or what?

[merlin]

Bass has become deeper, clearer and louder at phase 11, so they are less 'lean' than when they were lower down.



Perfectly feasible - after all moving even an inch or so in the vertical plane will affect a speaker's interaction with the relevent axial mode. Nowt to do with anything more though I suspect.

[analoguekid]

Merlin said
"Raising the to this height will give the correct spectral balance and reduce floor interaction. Raising them further will reduce floor interaction even further usually making them leaner than intended. It isn't rocket science."

My thoughts exactly .

James said
"Bass has become deeper, clearer and louder at phase 11, so they are less 'lean' than when they were lower down."

I wonder if this is due to the fact that your speakers are getting closer to the ceiling and are now being reinforced by the ceiling instead of the floor ?


keep up sleepy head Joel already suggested this and twas answered by Bub.

James you quote Merlin re Monitors in the air, and he states that they will sound leaner the higher you go, so how can yours now sound fuller if they are another foot in the air and you are not putting it down to ceiling interaction?

Edit

Merlin you suggest they sounded leaner higher up, James has moved his another foot and they are bassier, and I would say they are prolly equidistant from floor and ceiling, so what has made them do the opposite from what you describe?

[penance]

Paul,

I see this -

This message is hidden because The Devil is on your ignore list.

Im getting quite attached to it now, and it sure makes more legible sense than the other detritous i have seen from same origin.

[The Devil]

Perfectly feasible - after all moving even an inch or so in the vertical plane will affect a speaker's interaction with the relevent axial mode. Nowt to do with anything more though I suspect.

You may suspect - but you are wrong. I've heard the Mana effect in enough different systems and rooms to know that you are wrong, btw.

[analoguekid]

Just to keep you informed Andy he hasn't answered your insults so far.

[The Devil]

James you quote Merlin re Monitors in the air, and he states that they will sound leaner the higher you go, so how can yours now sound fuller if they are another foot in the air and you are not putting it down to ceiling interaction?


It's the Mana stands removing cabinet coloration, allowing you to hear the bass (and everything else) more clearly.

[penance]

LoL
Not bothered mate.
Insult not intended, more a small dig;)
I will leave it at that.

[The Devil]

Posting stuff in this thread about me hardly counts as 'ignoring' in my book.

[analoguekid]

He was replying to me though James as I asked a direct question.

Your answer to height didn't really answer my question, first you agree with M then you contradict him. You quoted him and his answer to monitors being better but leaner higher up as if you agreed then contradicted him by saying that your sound is fuller and that moving them had nothing to do with it the mana did it all, what gives?

[analoguekid]

Zealot alert, I thought fox had finished his room, but it seems the builders have left some scaffolding behind :) also shows other lovely rooms spoiled by the blacksmiths offcasts.

http://mana.server909.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=14


Although this guy isn't really trying
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/analogkid/post-2-1085596034.jpg

[The Devil]

first you agree with M then you contradict him. You quoted him and his answer to monitors being better but leaner higher up as if you agreed then contradicted him by saying that your sound is fuller and that moving them had nothing to do with it the mana did it all, what gives?
I don't understand what you mean, go back & re-read what I wrote?

[kermit]

It would be interesting to me (probably not you) Bub , if , when you get the chance, you pulled out the old tape measure and measured from the centre of your bass cone to a) the floor and b) the ceiling , just to see which one it,s closer to .

[analoguekid]

Ok I'll give you that one but somehow Merlins post seems to be beleivable, I can understand how moving them away from the floor can make them sound leaner, but you say the opposite, you must be correct again James, you being the expert on all things realistic and beleivable:)

[The Devil]

The bass drivers are about four feet from the floor; nine feet from the ceiling.

Paul, even you will be able to hear the difference between phase 7 & phase 11.

[kermit]

The bass drivers are about four feet from the floor; nine feet from the ceiling.



That doesn,t sound like a very high stack . Forgive me , Bub , with all this talk of Mana towers, I had visions of 6ft high stacks and large speakers perched precariously on top.

[analoguekid]

Paul, even you will be able to hear the difference between phase 7 & phase 11.


I doubt it em er thingy I mean James my memory aint that good. I was so underwhelmed the last time that it didn't stick in my mind, only joking, too much "beer" the last time to remember what it sounded like.

[analoguekid]

Kermit his CDP and TT are nigh on six feet from floor check out the pics on my mana forum link for what we mean by towers.

And you have to put this into perspective Bubs speakers are large approx four feet high, most of us have tweeters at around four feet, this is his bass he's talking about the tweeter is another 3 feet or so higher.

[merlin]

The bass drivers are about four feet from the floor; nine feet from the ceiling.


Give me exact measurements Bub before and after phase 11 and I will try to explain to you the different interactions.

[analoguekid]

If it's any help in the meantime Mike four phases is approx 11" or so i'm reliably informed.

[kermit]

Thanks AK , I realise that his tweets are higher .
The only other thing that I can think of is that the height of the bass cone is coming closer(or matching) to the distance from the side walls .
other than that it,s either Bub is right about the mana working or something thoroughly technical that Chris (alright Mike - smile) will no doubt post once/if Bub gives him the exact measurements.

[analoguekid]

woops did I write Chris, don't know how that happened, I put this in as I thought it unlikely that James would measure his speakers as asked.

[wadia-miester]

Maybe James will come out from his hobbit hole one day and realise what the rest of the world is enjoying

[The Devil]

OK

The centres of the woofers are 3' 11" from the floor, and hence about 9' from the ceiling.

The left speaker is 5' from the side wall, the right is about 15' from the other side wall. The speakers are 5' 6" apart.

The listening position is 13' from the front baffles. The back wall is about another 3' behind that.

Hope this helps to disprove what I have said about Mana stands.

[analoguekid]

:D :D :D :D :D

[merlin]

OK

The centres of the woofers are 3' 11" from the floor, and hence about 9' from the ceiling.
Hope this helps to disprove what I have said about Mana stands.

No James it does not disprove anything- I know what it's like trying to get people who have never heard something beleive me!

But, given a 13ft ceiling, you will expereince bass cancellations at 6ft 6in, and again at 3ft 3in and at 1ft 7.5 in. Reinforcement will occur mid way between these points, so at 4ft 10.5in and at 2ft 6in etc.

So before adding the extra phases, your ATC's would have been very close to a cancellation at both 43hz and 86hz. The new positioning will naturally increase bass response, and indeed make it more even, giving greater clarity to the midrange.

So I suggest there is a perfectly provable reason for the gains you have experienced beyond the number of phases you are employing.

[PeteH]

If for example Nora Jones is singing, it should be a female vocalist that covers maybe 3/4 octaves

Whooo, steady on there!

The likes of Cecilia Bartoli and others who specialise in coloratura opera roles might just about have a usable pitch range of three octaves, but it's pushing it a bit. Norah, to go on the evidence of the albums, has - in common with the vast majority of pop singers - a range of less than one. :D

[Matt@Nearfield]

Hey lads - I'm going to fit right in here, nothing like a little bickering to make an interesting read.

Thanks to those of you who took the time to reply, some thoughts that come out of this:

The Quad 99 CDP is worth a look, I'll certainly do so.

No thoughts on the Resolution Audio or any other older stuff... there must be some out there.

Analoguekid - I will have a look at the Shanling - personally it's not to my taste.. looks like a disco to me.. but as has been said, it's function over form for me.. and I don't believe in psycho-acoustics.... having said that the feel of the unit is extremely important, no point in having a piece of kit if you every time you touch it feels like it's going to fall to pieces - the shanling certainly does.

W_M - LOL at the W7 - there are better units out there you know... plus they are about as arch competiton to us as you can get.. But yes, I will go for an active sub, I'll do some x-over work and see what looks good.

The Devil - I know the ATCs quite well. They are not the sort of sound that I usually go for, but the sheer un-colouredness of them makes them an invaluable tool.

Some very interesting thoughts on the whole mana (I presume stands) thing here.. Have you lads ever looked into waterfall units on different stands? It would be interesting to do so. Decay, which I presume manifests itself ina similar way to 'bleeding' would show up obviously.

You would then need to look into reasons why of course, I can understand your thoughts on floor / ceiling loading effects, but could doppler come into it?

It's also intersting to read thoughts on the acoustic centre's of different driver arrays..

[Matt@Nearfield]

Oh, and I agree with Pete, apart from some higher order harmonics no way is Nore Jones covering 3-4 octaves :D

[analoguekid]

This Matt person sounds a little technical for us lot, didn't take him long to find us out, welcome aboard mucker.

[analoguekid]

Matt I have no views either way on the Shanling, it's just that my local dealer sells them and I've heard them a few times, pretty well built personally I don't really like the look of them a bit fussy for my tastes but thought I would reccomend anyway as they had built in pre of sorts, still agree with WM though this would be a stopgap untill you could afford a pre, running a bare source without pre only works if done properly, the pre in the Wadias for example prolly cost more to make than the shanling cdplayers do, but the shanling stuff is good value all the same, they even have some monoblocks that have built in vol with remote, almost mono integrateds. Personally I would go s/h exdem, but made no reccomendations as I can't remember what has built in pre and what prices they go for S/H, obvious answer is some Wadias, but the good ones are a bit above your stated budget, others will be along to help, but I'd start a new thread if I were you.

[lordsummit]

Nora Jones two octaves max, from G below middle C to the G two octaves above it.
Merlin is right about the waves, the wave shortens by a half every time the octave goes up if I remember right. Mind you it's a long time since I've had to think about it

[analoguekid]

Maybe James will come out from his hobbit hole one day and realise what the rest of the world is enjoying


Should we call him the "Bubbitt"

[penance]

Oh eck
He knows his stuff
we are doomed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Welcome aboard matey:)

[Matt@Nearfield]

Nora Jones two octaves max, from G below middle C to the G two octaves above it.
Merlin is right about the waves, the wave shortens by a half every time the octave goes up if I remember right. Mind you it's a long time since I've had to think about it


Certainly does, the range of human hearing (average, not talking about these young 18yrs who can hear silly ranges) is 10 octaves - 20hz to 20khz. the halving or doubling of time (or freq) is an octave.

Analogue - sorry if I sounded in anyway ungrateful for the recommendation, I will certainlyhave a look / listen. I understand what you mean about old gear, whilst I beieve 2nd hand is the way to go (someone else can pay the VAT;)), researching what's suitable or not isn't easy :(.. would like a wadia, but understand the older units use a phillips transport that is no longer replaceable and these are just starting to reach the age where they break down.. perhaps someone can confirm.

thanks everyone for the welcome :)

[analoguekid]

No offence taken Matt just wanted to make my position clear in case Julian branded me a zealot (we have enough of these already):D

[wadia-miester]

Paul,
Bubbit that might just catch on.
Nora Jones and octaves, 2 or 4 either way it wouldn't see the light of day in my system except on a demo, its arualy mental torture.
W7's yes getting on a bit know, though still pretty good, I installed 8, 13.5's into a av system last year each with a 1kw of class 't' on them, now that does make for an interesting U571 scene!!!!(even if the film is shite)
Curious to why you want monitors if your had CLD in the car, the monitors can't compete with the dynamics (though Bubbit will insist they do) or the total scale.
Though the Atc do respond well to x/over changes, had particularly good results with the 'M' caps (rather large though), help loose some of the Atc'ness about them
The quad cd is a good start point & does respond well to some internal restructuring and ancilliaries.

[The Devil]

But, given a 13ft ceiling, you will expereince bass cancellations at 6ft 6in, and again at 3ft 3in and at 1ft 7.5 in. Reinforcement will occur mid way between these points, so at 4ft 10.5in and at 2ft 6in etc.

So before adding the extra phases, your ATC's would have been very close to a cancellation at both 43hz and 86hz. The new positioning will naturally increase bass response, and indeed make it more even, giving greater clarity to the midrange.

So I suggest there is a perfectly provable reason for the gains you have experienced beyond the number of phases you are employing.
I think that this proves that you think that I'm some sort of idiotic yokel who has no idea about what a room resonance sounds like, and what deep controlled bass sounds like.

There isn't "more bass" there is "more controlled and deeper bass".

[Robbo]

I think that this proves that you think that I'm some sort of idiotic yokel

But you are, aren't you?

[merlin]

I think that this proves that you think that I'm some sort of idiotic yokel who has no idea about what a room resonance sounds like, and what deep controlled bass sounds like.


From that response James, one would assume such beliefs were correct sadly ;)

Looking at it through the round window today, removing a cancellation at the F3 point of your ATC's would seemingly extend the bass. Smoothing peaks and troughs in the bottom two octaves would apparently improve control at the same time - highly desireable IMO.

[The Devil]

You are very good at assuming and suspecting things Merlin.

[merlin]

No James,

just pointing out a FACT that could well explain the gains you attribute to the less scientifically provable impact of additional iron & spikes. Now let's ask the forum which is actually more likely to provide the gains - proper positioning or an extra 30% of scaffold?

[analoguekid]

I know where my money lies (in the absence of proven facts) and I know which is more aesthetically harmonious in a domestic setting.

I intend to have seperate room in the next house (not for a year or to unfortunately) and proper positioning and room treatments is what I'll be doing, in the meantime I'll keep my compromised unaccurate poor sounding Hifi Jewellrey.

[The Devil]

First this:
Raising them further will reduce floor interaction even further usually making them leaner than intended. It isn't rocket science.

Then this:

The new positioning will naturally increase bass response, and indeed make it more even, giving greater clarity to the midrange.

I'm kicking myself now that I didn't consult an expert like you before getting the extra Mana in. Next time, eh?

:D

[wadia-miester]

You could do it on the cheap, buy some 8 foot scofflding tubes, cut and weld to suit, fit obligatory spikes, paint matt black, scan some **** labels, hey presto instant raised driver axis, that 'Inviable bass in the centre again' and you saved about £7k sounds a great solution

[analoguekid]

Well James Merlin has given some scientific/mathematical reason for the differences you are hearing, what proof (other than endorsements) is there for Mana working as you seem to think it does.

[merlin]

James, no need to kick yourself, just do a bit of reading and you will understand the concept.

This may prove to be highly beneficial allowing you to concentrate your funds on other areas of the system rather than investing in further platforms.

FWIW, both of those statements are factually correct, but you do need an understanding of the subject to apreciate it. Have you grasped the relevence of the positioning on the vertical axis with regards to bass reproduction ?

The laws of physics suggest that your move upwards will result (given your measurements) in improved bass and greater clarity. This is provable. What is not unfortunately, is that four expensive bits of angle iron & mdf hooked up with spikes somehow posess magical and revelatory properties. Can you help out there James ;)

[The Devil]

So, Mr Merlin, the speakers have become "leaner" - implying less bass, is this correct? But at the same time the bass response has increased!

I cannot answer these overwhelming scientific arguments, Mr Merlin, particularly enjoying your invocation of "the laws of physics" by the way. Is this all of "the laws of physics", or just certain selected highlights? :-) Please clarify which laws you mean.

You suggested that I should "just do a bit of reading". I enjoy reading very much. What would you suggest I should read to explain this mysterious & simultaneous increase & decrease in bass of yours?

It's all very interesting!

[The Devil]

Well James Merlin has given some scientific/mathematical reason for the differences you are hearing, what proof (other than endorsements) is there for Mana working as you seem to think it does.
Paul, Mr Merlin has posted what is commonly known as "a load of old baloney".

There is no proof that Mana works, but I would have thought that you knew that.

[wadia-miester]

Well possiby James I suggest you supply some 'Proof', send it to Brunnel University of Engineering, let them 'test' the theories. Would that be independent for you enough?

[analoguekid]

Paul, Mr Merlin has posted what is commonly known as "a load of old baloney".

There is no proof that Mana works, but I would have thought that you knew that.


A lot of old baloney, well you buy into that so you should know what it is when you see it. :)

I think Mikes first post was a generalisation that moving speakers away from floor reinforcement should meake bass leaner, however when using measurements to answer your question as to why your new tweak added bass, then for me (and a lot of others i presume) this seems to have merit, based on my limited knowledge of the "laws of Physics"

So far Mike has given well thought out reasons as to why the changes you are hearing are happening, you however keep saying mana works I am right and know what is accurate, if your sysytem was so accurate at phase 7 are you now saying that at phase 11 it is more than accurate.

Of course not you are finding out that your frame of reference has changed now that your system is closer to accurate than what it was, this conclusion should lead you to the assumption that you are only as correct as your reference point, maybe just maybe James there is no "correct" sound and we in fact all have a different and valid interpretation of what is right, hey we're all different and no one of us has all the answers, lets just say that all your previous posts on the subject of your beleifs are in fact that, just beliefs, now if you apply this theory to your posts in the future and added in block capitals "IMHO" then people would not get so pissed off with your unwavering condascending, self oppinionated righteousness.

[penance]

This is great.
Paul, last sentence, nice touch :)

[wadia-miester]

In the red corner, 'swaying in' at 11 phases Bubbit baggins leader of the Ferrite worship party (forceable retired from the Isle of ferrous, but still active) and in the Blue corner common sense and Bling factor 10

[The Devil]

Well possiby James I suggest you supply some 'Proof', send it to Brunnel University of Engineering, let them 'test' the theories. Would that be independent for you enough?

Okey-doke, go ahead. My stands are in constant use, so I'd suggest sending off the ones that are allegedly under your toolbox, since you are the one demanding "proof". While you are at it, enclose some of your famous cables and see what they make of those!

your sysytem was so accurate at phase 7 are you now saying that at phase 11 it is more than accurate.

Not "more than", but "more". Is upgrading difficult to understand?

[sideshowbob]

Am I the only person who finds it ironic that snake oil cable believers are invoking the laws of physics to take the piss out of a stand believer? :D

-- Ian

[analoguekid]

James I answered that in the paragraph following it.

You have found out again that your system was the most accurate you have heard, at p7and then when it gets even closer to your perceived thoughts on what is accuracy, at p11 then thats an upgrade that, yes of course I know that, but how muxh more accurate can it get or are you just about close to perfection, I find it hard to believe that each Mana upgrade can have such a profound affect, subtle effect exagerated by you maybe, if that was the case then a cheapy £40 DVD player would blow away the best there is if you spenfd enough on mana.

Could you in having your own blinkered limited reference point as to what is accuracy, in fact be wrong, maybe others have systems that are more accurate than yours, and by adding more mana you may even approach the level of accuracy, one day, that others already have with proper hifi placed on a sideboard, I imagine when ATC designed your speaker they tuned it to be accurate on the factory stands, or in a studio, near a mixing desk, not perched 20 feet in the air on wobbly scaffolding.

[notaclue]

Am I the only person who finds it ironic that snake oil cable believers are invoking the laws of physics to take the piss out of a stand believer? :D

-- Ian

No. :)

[analoguekid]

Yes Ian I thought of that myself too, but as a beleiver I also respect your views on wire as being equally valid, and as such would never tell you you are wrong for having those beleifs, Bubbitt, doesn't present his views in the same way asthe rest of us, he states them as self righteous fact, and all us plebs are wrong, thats why I am treating this argument in the way i am.

[The Devil]

how muxh more accurate can it get or are you just about close to perfection, I find it hard to believe that each Mana upgrade can have such a profound affect.
Dunno. Yes, I know you find it hard to believe. I have no problem with that at all.

As regards using Mana in your system, well it's your gear, your tastes, and if you believe yours is fine, then everyone is happy. Besides, your wife won't let you, which must be a bit annoying for you.

I'm still interested in your views as to how I manage to get deeper louder bass than you can, without vibration in the floor, any offers?

[wadia-miester]

Sideshow, again showing signs of humour, a most pleasing step forward excellent, more books please simpkins I've eaten 3 already

[analoguekid]

James that ALMOST approaches a well balanced "the other guy has as valid a point of yiew as me" kinof answer, keep practising answers like this and you may not be ganged up on so much.

The rest of us are happy that you have found you nirvana, what we are not happy with is your unwavering stance that we are all wrong cause we have taken a different path.

[The Devil]

Yes, but your floor is full of bass, which, to my ears, is ruining what I presume could be a good sound. The Bow/ART stuff isn't cheap, I'm not sure how highly-regarded it is (apart from by you & Jack) but I guess it must be capable of reasonably good performance if you set it up optimally.

[wadia-miester]

So James, taking Your statement of the 'floor is full of bass', that **** is the only way to deal with this issue?. (I haven't listend to AK system so I can't comment on it)
Whatever happen to good old speaker placement first, sort of back to basiscs optimise what you have first then try other avenues after.

[The Devil]

Tony, because wherever he places them in his room, they are in direct contact with the floor. I remember you telling me that your system shook the room so much that the sofa moved about. This rang alarm bells at the time, I hope you've dealt with those issues...

[lordsummit]

I find it hard to believe that a stand, or indeed a cable could have as much effect on sound as changing a component. Now if someone is wanting to prove otherwise to me and or others I will gladly lend them my listening room and we can see if it does work. The obvious way would be to use the same kit and two different stands, lets say Mana and Quadraspire. It would be interesting to see as I don't have an interactive floor whether it would make a difference there. I do have a feeling that were I to be offered the opportunity of a Wadia CD player or a large pile of Mana the Wadia would make most difference. Again it would be interesting to try. A subject for a bake-off perhaps.

Then if we can't agree how about we settle the arguments with an arm wrestling competition

[The Devil]

I find it hard to believe that a stand ... could have as much effect on sound as changing a component.

Me too. I was the biggest sceptic of all before I tried it. L&C (Glasgow) lent me their dem room Mana rack for a week. That was the end of the scepticism.

[analoguekid]

Did you ever think that the guys at ART might have designed my speaker to have an accurate sound in a normal living room without any other form od isolation, and in fact if you moved the speakers onto mana they might not work the same, James you may be right in what you say, but that doesn't mean that I would like the sound better, afterall, i listen to the music and if the emotions come accros hen I have achieved what I set out to do, no where have I said that mana doesn't work, that would be just plain arrogant, I can only comment on my reference points, the only mana'd system I have heard is yours, and I have not heard it sans mana, so cannot compare the before and after, but that is where the differences between our views lie, i accept that others may have an equally valid, but different point of view, you post your views in a condascending manner and show disdain for others views, as if you are right, that smacks of arrogance James, and having met you I know that you are in fact not arrogant (except perhaps with hifi), I have also stated that I have an open mind, but at the moment, my domestic situation/funds will not allow me to experiment further, so for the next few years I'm gonna get your opinion of right and wrong rammed down my throat as fact, IF I try mana one day and it is as you say then I'll happily conmcede that, but I will not pour scorn on others who don't have the same beleifs, but will you accept that if I try your suggestions at some point in the future and don't like them, will you accept that, and also accept that I am just as correct as you.

[analoguekid]

James I will also extend my invitation as Lord has done, next time you plan to dismantle your system, then let me know and you could come over with some bits, if it's as good as you say then you have nothing to loose and all to gain, and I will be the one with egg on his face, I will also post a full description of it on this forum jsut to let everyone know what a Jackass I have been, on the other hand if you're not sure it would work.....

Lets put it this way James, if I were in your shoes, and i thoroughly believed in my convictions, I would bite the bullet and spend a little time to dismantle bits of my system and bring them over to prove that I was right, just to get satisfaction from sayiong "I told you so"

[The Devil]

[reply to 1st post]
That's fine Paul.

I am unconvinced by the ART speakers as I heard them, but you are happy, which is all that matters. The problem is that I am used to the ATCs which are a pretty hard act to follow, particularly on Mana.

You are in a position to comment on P7 vs P11, if you want to come over. Bring your wife if she would like to come: women are more rational than men with these things, and they usually have better hearing.

[The Devil]

Dismantling and setting-up at your place is honestly too time-consuming.

Mana do offer a 14-day, no-quibble, money back guarantee, so ...?

[Paul Ranson]

and also accept that I am just as correct as you.
This is a paradox. Everybody just as correct as everybody else. Just doesn't work that way.

You have the right to an opinion, and you have the right to be wrong. I celebrate your right to be wrong.

Paul

[garyi]

The big problem for all of us is percieved differences and justifying our purchases, it is something we will never get away from unfortunatly

[wadia-miester]

James,
The room issues are almost resolved, the speakers are in contact with the floor (indirectly) are a mere 2.5" from their intended height, my bass is invisable ;) and well in the centre of the sound stage, my sound is articulate, groovy, quick quick, rhythmic and powerful, has great depth and texture, is detailed and oh so involving & the speakers have disappeared. Oh its slightly dynamic :D . Guess what no **** either strange that really :)

[analoguekid]

Paul I accept your right to be wrong also, this is only a paradox if there is an absolute answer which ther isn't as this is all very subjective, if I said that gravity exerts 12m/s/s then this is clearly wrong, however if i said that to me (from my point of reference) this does sound accurate then who are you to tell me I'm not, even the engineers mixing the stuff will find different qualities that are important to them, doesn't make them wrong, as with all subjective things Paul there is no right and wrong.

No one has yet answered the reason why these speakers are so accurate in ATC's development labs and on factory stands in studio floors, yet Bub maintains that they are more accurate in his system than they were on the factory stands, does he know something ATC don't?

[analoguekid]

James,
The room issues are almost resolved, the speakers are in contact with the floor (indirectly) are a mere 2.5" from their intended height, my bass is invisable ;) and well in the centre of the sound stage, my sound is articulate, groovy, quick quick, rhythmic and powerful, has great depth and texture, is detailed and oh so involving & the speakers have disappeared. Oh its slightly dynamic :D . Guess what no **** either strange that really :)


Funny that Tony I would describe my system in much the same way particularly about bass in centre of stage(unless on the odd occasion it has been mixed in stereo with pans to left right etc) and speakers dissapearing, my speakers are on aluminium legs that have the m8 spikes screwed into them so are not in direct contact with the floor, but the funny thing is the same cannot be said of James' system, yes it amkes a nice sound but I was constantly aware of the speakers, sounded like the kind of soundstage you get from a £100 ghetto blaster, maybe we are after different things and if we choose our equipment to enhance these things then are we not both correct?....Paul R

[analoguekid]

[reply to 1st post]
That's fine Paul.

I am unconvinced by the ART speakers as I heard them, but you are happy, which is all that matters. .

This is fine James I accept your different opinion


The problem is that I am used to the ATCs which are a pretty hard act to follow, particularly on Mana..

This smacks of arrogance James "Pretty hard act to follow",......IMHO.... would be a lot better

You are in a position to comment on P7 vs P11, if you want to come over. Bring your wife if she would like to come: women are more rational than men with these things, and they usually have better hearing.


Margaret would not do this james she thinks we are a bunch of nerds.

And I'm not sure If I will be able to tell the difference as I don't think my accoustic memory is that good.

[wadia-miester]

Well the Meadowlartks sit on a 35mm Granite plinth (concrete floor and carpeted), spikes are removed and they sit on 3 Stillpoints with raisers.
Rough 1/2 and inch more than manufacturer inteneded.
The system drives the room now rather than the other way round, they are still some nodes, but these don't have have anywhere near the effect they used to with the GR 20's.
Basically is makes for a very invovling and 'Live' sound which I like, hence why my cd collection have expanded by 15% in the 3 months.
Its not correct by Hifi standards, but then what is correct or right, I've never found it yet

[sideshowbob]

Have you tried the Blue Herons in that room yet, Tone?

-- Ian

[The Devil]

No one has yet answered the reason why these speakers are so accurate in ATC's development labs and on factory stands in studio floors, yet Bub maintains that they are more accurate in his system than they were on the factory stands, does he know something ATC don't?
ATC are well aware of Mana stands: JW demo'd the stands to them at the factory.

[The Devil]

This smacks of arrogance James "Pretty hard act to follow",......IMHO.... would be a lot better
The ATCs are almost universally very highly regarded transducers, not just by me!

[ReJoyce]

Mana do offer a 14-day, no-quibble, money back guarantee, so ...?

You could sweeten it by offering to help set it up and to pay for the return postage just in case, after all its hardly a free experiment otherwise.


Cheers

Jason

[The Devil]

I am not some sort of Mana go-between. I am more than happy to help with setting-up, if asked nicely, but that's it.

[Paul Ranson]

as with all subjective things Paul there is no right and wrong.
'Hifi' isn't 'subjective'. The aim isn't to create pleasing sounds or effects, that's the artists job.

Paul

[Paul Ranson]

would describe my system in much the same way particularly about bass in centre of stage(unless on the odd occasion it has been mixed in stereo with pans to left right etc)
I find that the bass is rarely mixed centre. Odd that.

Paul

[The Devil]

'Hifi' isn't 'subjective'. The aim isn't to create pleasing sounds or effects, that's the artists job.

Absolutely agree with that. The aim is high fidelity to whatever source/medium is used. You can hear very easily when something sounds wrong, this is why I mostly use well-recorded acoustic music to assess hi-fi systems.

At analoguekid's place, Bach's oboe concertoes had become something else.

[wadia-miester]

Have you tried the Blue Herons in that room yet, Tone?

-- Ian
Ian,

Simple answer is No sir, I really should get my arse in gear and try them, I'm pleased with the results so far with the system, so it really is time I placed them in situ and tried em.

[julian2002]

paul / bub
i'd ask what your reference is? have you heard every piece of music in your collection live? i doubt it. also you are forgetting the physiological differences (as well as psycological ones). everyone's hearing and perception is different. i could have hearing that attenuates certain frequencies whereas you may not. this would mean that one bit of kit sounds 'accurate' to me but peaky at certain frequencies to you. hi-fi IS subjective.
in fact i find the whole 'accuracy' thing as silly as groovy,hi-fi, musical and all the other qualifications applied to systems. at the end of the day you either like the way the kit plays the music you own or you don't. i'm firmly in the former camp.
cheers


julian

[The Devil]

Hi,

We all know how acoustic instruments should sound. If they sound different through your system, then it's the recording or the system at fault.

The task is to find well-recorded material and use that to assess accuracy. This is not very difficult to do, since most decent CDs & records are well-recorded.

As a matter of fact, I had a three-piece acoustic band (guitar x2, vocal x2, and tambourine) recorded in my living room last summer. I now know how accurate my own system is because of this experience - we played the recording back through the mixing desk/NAC 52/ATCs, then burned it to CD and played that too.

[Paul Ranson]

I think many systems with small loudspeakers sound like everything has loads of wobbly bass. Is that right? Or is just nice if you like that kind of thing?

It is (or should be) pretty obvious when a voice is coloured by the system, again is that right?

Paul

[joel]

As a matter of fact, I had a three-piece acoustic band (guitar x2, vocal x2, and tambourine) recorded in my living room last summer.
What were the mics and in what configuration where they used?
As I record around 15~20 hours of voice every week, I'm in need of some tips.

[The Devil]

Funny that Tony I would describe my system in much the same way particularly about bass in centre of stage(unless on the odd occasion it has been mixed in stereo with pans to left right etc) and speakers dissapearing, my speakers are on aluminium legs that have the m8 spikes screwed into them so are not in direct contact with the floor, but the funny thing is the same cannot be said of James' system, yes it amkes a nice sound but I was constantly aware of the speakers, sounded like the kind of soundstage you get from a £100 ghetto blaster, maybe we are after different things and if we choose our equipment to enhance these things then are we not both correct?....Paul R
Missed this post...

Things must have changed a lot, Paul! When I was there, the room was swamped with overblown bass coming from all directions, but chiefly from the floor.

The only criticism which I might accept about the ATCs is that imaging is perhaps not their strongest suit. I think it's pretty good as speakers go, but I have heard better imaging from a pair of Castle Chesters. They more than make up for this in other areas, however.

[The Devil]

What were the mics and in what configuration where they used?
As I record around 15~20 hours of voice every week, I'm in need of some tips.
No idea, I wasn't the recording engineer.

[julian2002]

paul / bub,
it is perhaps obvious if you are intimately familiar with that voice or instrument however from bub's statement i get the feeling that he's of the opinion that a violin is a violin is a violin and therefore he is able to determine absolutely that his system can produce 'a violin' with absolute accuracy. i'm dubious of this fact.
small speakers / wobbly bass maybe but then i'm not claiming stunning levels of accuracy from my gear just that i like the way it sounds.
cheers


julian

[lordsummit]

We all know how acoustic instruments should sound. If they sound different through your system, then it's the recording or the system at fault

So there should be no difference between Jascha Heifitz and Nigel Kennedy playing the violin then. The ideal hi-fi would make them both sound the same. It's all becoming clear now ;)

[The Devil]

paul / bub,
it is perhaps obvious if you are intimately familiar with that voice or instrument however from bub's statement i get the feeling that he's of the opinion that a violin is a violin is a violin and therefore he is able to determine absolutely that his system can produce 'a violin' with absolute accuracy. i'm dubious of this fact.

Not in the least. Different violins sound different, but they should be readily identifyable as "a violin" rather than "a distorted violin" or some other instrument.

If you are dubious, I don't think that you can have any idea what is really possible with hi-fi Julian. You would be reasonably welcome to come and hear what is possible, but it's a long way from southern England (for which I often count my blessings).

[penance]

Were we not told that there is no such thing as a bad recording?

[The Devil]

No, you were told that as the system improves, the number of "bad recordings" tends toward zero.

Pay attention, and don't misquote me again.

[penance]

was he replying to me?
or busy backtracking?

[The Devil]

You will never know.

Heh heh.

[Sgt Rock]

No, you were told that as the system improves, the number of "bad recordings" tends toward zero.

Pay attention, and don't misquote me again.

I can't see how, Isn't a bad recording still a bad recording regardless of what it's being played on, If anything shouldn't the number so bad recordings increase as the better system shows up the issues with the recording better ?

[The Devil]

No, because some recordings are far too complex for basic hi-fi systems to resolve all of the details which are present, so it comes across as an awful din/mush, and you assume that there's something wrong with it. As you improve the system, the details become clearer and better-separated from each other, and a "bad recording" becomes a "good" one.

QED.

[analoguekid]

I find that the bass is rarely mixed centre. Odd that.

Paul


I find it most odd that you say this Paul as most of the engineers are two blinkered to mix it in stereo and pan left or right (this from and engineer friend) who incidentally works with Derek forbes and has been involved with Simple Minds engineering, I know Bub prolly asked you for support here but I find it strange you directing these posts just at me, I have heard bubs system and these were my thoughts, It is subjective no matter what you claim, If it sounds right to me then from my point of view I am correct, you have absolutely no idea how my senses have interpreted things therefore you can't tell me i'm wrong, and incidentaly don't take James' word on how my system sounds wait till youi hear it for yourself, you may be correct regarding his systems handling of dynamics etc, but have you considered that my system may be better at these things than his, you seriously can't comment on that one as agian you haven't heard it, I would never say your vsystem was lacking unless I heard it.

FWIW

I was very polite about James' system upon hearing it, after all the build up and hype, weel, lets just say I was underwhelmed, then Jame's pays me a visit to listen to some music and proceeds to get his most challenging discs out and trys to tear my system apart, he was then describing all the inadequacies that he could hear (if i'm honest I don't think I asked for him to do this, I thought we were here to listen to some music) and IIRC I certainly couldn't hear what he was whittering about and neither could Dunkyboy (IIRC) We disconnected the bass units and Jaames went on to say how much better the sound was than without, strange but he again was the only one to ntice this, I went round to James' place again and proceeded to give him a taste of his own medicine buy disecting what I could and couldn't hear, he certainly didn't like it when the boot was on the other foot, so maybe now you can see why I've been giving him such a hard time, if you look at my other posts you will see that I am fair and well balanced, but I treat others as they treat me, so far the only time you have answered my posts is when I have been arguing with James, your loyalty is touching Paul, but please remeber to get the facts correct before going on the rampage.

[leonard smalls]

Getting back to the original subject (;)) I demmed a Shanling against an Advantage S1...
Didn't like the Shanling at all - it looked pretty ifyou like bling, but was surprisingly spitty and harsh. Set my teeth on edge, in a chewing aluminium sort of way..
The Advantage (cheaper than the Shanling, but only 2nd hand!) blew it into the weeds - music as opposed to hifi..

[analoguekid]

No, because some recordings are far too complex for basic hi-fi systems to resolve all of the details which are present, so it comes across as an awful din/mush, and you assume that there's something wrong with it. As you improve the system, the details become clearer and better-separated from each other, and a "bad recording" becomes a "good" one.

QED.


And guess which camp yours falls into James :SLEEP:

[merlin]

Christ some of us have to work on Fridays!

Bub still hasn't come up with anything more original than the normal dissing of fact in favour of hocus pokus though, shame James! Come on give us the full room dimensions and just see what crap I can come up with!

Try harder will you, after all there must be an irrational explanation out there somewhere - this is hifi for heaven's sake!

[analoguekid]

paul / bub,
it is perhaps obvious if you are intimately familiar with that voice or instrument however from bub's statement i get the feeling that he's of the opinion that a violin is a violin is a violin and therefore he is able to determine absolutely that his system can produce 'a violin' with absolute accuracy. i'm dubious of this fact.
small speakers / wobbly bass maybe but then i'm not claiming stunning levels of accuracy from my gear just that i like the way it sounds.
cheers


julian


Julian My point exactly I'm trying to find the root of all this hifi expertise, and assuredness that he has an accurate sounding system, I have said in the past that I like the sound it makes if that is innacurate then I guess I just don't like accurayte systems, if that makes me wrong in James' and Paul's eyes then why should I care, but what I'd like to know is who appointed them as the oracle in all things right and wrong with how something sounds especially when they have never heard it, James sates that he has been into hifi for 20 years, well thats a little less than me so does that make me more experienced, of course not, but I don't profess to have all the answers, nor do I ram my opinions down other peoples throat.

Andy were is that ignore button again?

[penance]

ah, Join the club Paul

Click on the users profile dropdown menu. When you get thier profile its an option there. Join me, you know it makes sense:)

[analoguekid]

It does work Andy I have him who shall not be named and his sidekick both so now were were we, ah yes shanling, pile of shite wouldn't touch them with a bargepole what you need is Bow Technologies, lots of stuff endorsing them (although I'm not a middle man so I won't bother to quote any) I'm right yer all deaf, in fact my stuff sounds shite but it's bling factor is in orbit. :D

[The Devil]

I can't help feeling that you are over-reacting somewhat, Paul. You are happy with it, so where's the beef? I haven't asked anyone for 'help' in this thread, why should I?

Merlin, so far you've posted two different theoretical models in this thread. The first stated that bass gets less as you raise a speaker, the second contradicts this. Can we have a final position from you, just so we know?

The room measures about 27 feet by about 18 feet (20 or so into bay window behind speakers) by 13 feet. Does this help at all?

[julian2002]

paul,
the thing that really gets my goat is the absolutist hyperbole and the use of the words realistic, distortion, etc. as new age replacements for things like musicality, pr&t and groove.
i like to think that i've heard some pretty stunning systems in my time, both from the pov of price as well as percieved quality (as apart from price). only one has made me re-evaluate my system at home and then only in one area (and a very impractical area too given that i live in a semi).
to me this really only proves one thing - we've all either chosen a sound we are most comfortable with or we've gotten used to what we have at home and we therefore use this as our 'reference'. anything that doesn't approach or mimic this 'reference' is percieved as 'distorted', 'flat', 'hi-fi', 'plinque' or any of the other 2000 derogitory terms that have been coined to say that really it's just different to what we are used to. sadly this is a fact of human nature.
bub, if i'm ever up in glasgow i'd love to have a listen to your brand of perfection and the reciprocal offer is made if you're ever this far south of the border.
cheers


julian

[penance]

Its a lovely feeling Paul:D

BTW, did you know my system is perfect, absolutly perfect, as am I. All others are distorted (systems and people:) )

[Robbo]

Andy were is that ignore button again?

Eh? You guys were best buddies 5 minutes ago :confused:

[The Devil]

I really can't understand why you (analoguekid) and penance are in such a huff (should that be two separate huffs, or one collective one?). All I am doing is trying to help you with suggestions as to how you might improve your sound. I thought that was what these forums were all about.

Ho hum.

[analoguekid]

Julian I whole heartadly agree wth you, it's because of these comments that I have resorted to this over reaction, I have always beleived that this hobby is subjective, whatever PR says I don't profess to having the best system or all the answers, I have said that James' sytem does bass better than "what I'm used to" but that I prefer the other things that mine does, i don't then follow it up with subtle comments that smack of elitism and arrogant self righteousness. His comments are almost sneering for example "yes you like your system" but then sneeringly adding but to these ears it doesn't sound as good as whatI'm used to and I'm used to the best there is, everyone else thinks so"

I would extend an offer to you Ju if yer ever in MNOTW then please pop over for some beer and a listen to some toons I may ven have som Ant Forcione by that time, I would also love to hear yours especially as it is a bit different from the norm.

[analoguekid]

Eh? You guys were best buddies 5 minutes ago :confused:


Doesn't mean I have to see the annoying posts he puts up Robbo, the funny thing with James is that outwith cybespace he's really a nice guy.

[Robbo]

elitism and arrogant self righteousness.

He's a doctor for god's sake! What do you expect :)

[The Devil]

Analoguekid,

I didn't read Paul Ranson's comments that way at all. I think you should perhaps try to put all this into perspective. There's no point in getting upset by what other people think.

My system has been thoroughly "dissed" on-line by many people, including your good self when you compared it with a £100 ghetto-blaster! Do I mind? Not a bit.

[analoguekid]

I really can't understand why you (analoguekid) and penance are in such a huff (should that be two separate huffs, or one collective one?). All I am doing is trying to help you with suggestions as to how you might improve your sound. I thought that was what these forums were all about.

Ho hum.


BTW I saw this from my mailwasher account, and have taken you off ignore list to answer this.

Your post James explains exactly why we are in the huff as you put it, where did Andy and I ask for you opinion on how we can improve on something that we are already happy with, and even if we asked for your advice, what makes you think you are correct all the time, did you ever consider that you may be wrong.

[Heath]

The room measures about 27 feet by about 18 feet (20 or so into bay window behind speakers) by 13 feet. Does this help at all?
Well, if he's going to do an accurate analysis of your room, rather than the theoretical physics he got wrong earlier, he'll also need to know the dimensions, positions and acoustic properties of all your furniture too. Most people find it easier and more accurate to find the acoustic properties of a room by taking readings within the room, but I'm sure others will disagree.

Heath

[analoguekid]

James I never asked you to comment on my system and never said any negative remarks regarding yours until you proceeded to tell me something I never asked for. When will you realise that sometimes peoples opinions are neither wanted or needed, here's a suggestion, wait till your advice is asked for before passing comment, it makes life so much more harmonious, James you are becoming a BOOR, and I know that deep down you are a nice guy and being a boor doesn't suit you

[analoguekid]

Heath don't defend him, it will only make him worse, let him do his own research to disprove Merlin's theories, instead of spouting nonsense, that he has picked up from others.

[julian2002]

guys, calm down. it's only hi-fi, it's not like its religon or anything... oh HOBBY we may have a problem. bub, please no strapping vials of those killer, antibiotic resistant bugs to yourself and then hurling yourself at ak screaming HOBBY akbar.
ak, that goes double for you too
and penance, please stop work on your prof farnsworth stylee doomsday device you've been working on in your spare room.
cheers


julian

[sideshowbob]

This is getting good.

-- Ian

[analoguekid]

guys, calm down. it's only hi-fi, it's not like its religon or anything... oh HOBBY we may have a problem. bub, please no strapping vials of those killer, antibiotic resistant bugs to yourself and then hurling yourself at ak screaming HOBBY akbar.
ak, that goes double for you too
and penance, please stop work on your prof farnsworth stylee doomsday device you've been working on in your spare room.
cheers


julian


Ok Ju you playing Dad then :D

[tones]

All together now...

Our HOBBY
Who art in HiFi
Hallowed be thy Naim
Thy upgrades come
Thy will be done on earth as it is in Angelsey
Give us this day our daily thread
And forgive us our trespasses
As we forgive them that trespass against our better taste
And lead us often into temptation
But deliver us from sceptics
For thine is the cable
The Mana, the green pen
For ever and ever
Amen

[Sgt Rock]

No, because some recordings are far too complex for basic hi-fi systems to resolve all of the details which are present, so it comes across as an awful din/mush, and you assume that there's something wrong with it. As you improve the system, the details become clearer and better-separated from each other, and a "bad recording" becomes a "good" one.

QED.

A bad recording is still a bad recording "Quod erat demonstrandum" back at you :p

[Heath]

Heath don't defend him, it will only make him worse, let him do his own research to disprove Merlin's theories, instead of spouting nonsense, that he has picked up from others.
Sorry, didn't realise it was Bub-baiting season. Do we just insult his ATCs or can we use sharp sticks too?

Heath

[dunkyboy]

How 'bout we all just assume that from now on, everything said by anyone on this forum, ever, has an invisible 'IMHO' in front of it. Will that keep everyone happy? (I've been doing this for years and it seems to work for me.)

I've always taken Bub's 'arrogance' as just a facet of his charming persona, and I've never taken offence at it (perhaps easier for me than some, given I'm also an active ATC devotee ;) ). Sometimes it's good to be mild-mannered. :)

Can't we all just get along? (Or would that be too boring for this forum..?)

Dunc

[wadia-miester]

Gee whiz, some blows being Parried at the end there, Seems I've missed all the fun, never got to fire a shot let alone a full spread@ Maxium yeild, oh well take us out of bass less combat zone No.1

[Paul Ranson]

Julian wrote,
but then i'm not claiming stunning levels of accuracy from my gear just that i like the way it sounds.
which is my point exactly. But then the Milkybar Kid quoted Julian and wrote,
My point exactly I'm trying to find the root of all this hifi expertise
So now I'm very confused.

'Hifi' is by definition an absolute goal, a goal which can be pretty much defined, and about which we can make some objective judgments. I don't see why this is controversial, or why a choice to follow a slightly divergent path causes so much angst.

Paul

[Paul Ranson]

Analoguekid(!) wrote a rather rambling post that included,
I find it most odd that you say this Paul as most of the engineers are two blinkered to mix it in stereo and pan left or right (this from and engineer friend) who incidentally works with Derek forbes and has been involved with Simple Minds engineering,
Almost every band I've ever seen has the bassist to the left or right and the drums in the centre. Almost every stereo recording I have of a band presents an image that matches this.

For an example I have a soft spot for the Deep Purple live recording 'Made in Japan'. At least the Osaka tracks are recorded left-right reversed. But the drummer sounds right handed, which is normal. Examination of photos however shows that the drummer is actually playing left handed. The mix produces a stereo image of the drums, the bass is to the right of the hi-hat and snare, where it should be left, the lead guitar is left when it should be right, the organ right when it should be left. Vocals are mixed to the centre.

What does it sound like on your system?

Paul

[merlin]

Merlin, so far you've posted two different theoretical models in this thread. The first stated that bass gets less as you raise a speaker, the second contradicts this. Can we have a final position from you, just so we know?

The room measures about 27 feet by about 18 feet (20 or so into bay window behind speakers) by 13 feet. Does this help at all?

James, the two statements are in fact correct - you have simply misnterpretted them. There is a difference between boundary reinforcement in this instance and the affect of room modes.

What is the distance to the side walls from the centre of the bass units? This might well help further ;)

[wadia-miester]

Paul R,
The error was corrected in the 1993 remaster 'Live in Japan', and it sounds awesome here (even for a digital beer spinner)
I think you were too quick to jump on Ak, he was just trying to give an example (properbly got Tone tied trying to put into words)
I also have plenty of recording where drums and guitars are off kilter to the genine stage preformance, blame the micking and the mixing engineer

[julian2002]

paul,
my problem is with the statement (and this is only an example) 'the atc's are the most accurate speakers' and it's ilk. there is a whole list of qualifications to this statement that make it meaningless (i.e. in my room, with my ears, using my pre, and my source and my cables, and mains , etc...).
perfect reproduction may be an absolute goal however, the routes there are many and varied and there are no universal solutions as have been touted in this thread.

add to this the fact that most of those here weren't in the recording studio at the time their record collection was recorded and the claim of 'accuracy' soon becomes as meaningless as a linnies or naimies cries of 'musicality and prat' and others cries of 'slam or presence'.

ultimately if you like what product xyz does then great, bully for you, recommend it all you want but don't claim magical properties like it being a panacea for all audio woes. you'll just get peoples backs up and they scramble for the chance to push your champion product off it's pedistal.
cheers


julian

[Paul Ranson]

WM.
The point was about 'bass' being in the centre, which, IME, is seldom the case. The Purple thing is an example. The error's been preserved on the 1998 CD remaster, FWIW.

Julian,
'the atc's are the most accurate speakers'
I've never made that statement. I doubt James has.

However it's definitely true to say that big ATCs are much more accurate than most of what pass for 'hifi' speakers. And accuracy must be equivalent to hifi. 'Musicality' is just another word for it, albeit an obfuscatory one.

Paul

[lordsummit]

A long time ago two men wrote a song

Seems quite pertinent here:

I had a little gramophone;
I'd wind it round and round,
And with a sharpish needle
It made a cheerful sound.

And then they amplified it;
It was much louder then,
And you sharpened fibre needles
To make it soft again.

Today for reproduction
I'm as eager as can be;
Count me among the faithful fans
Of High Fidelity.

High Fidelity! Hi Fi's the thing for me
With an L.P. disc and an F.M. set
And a comer reflex cabinet,
High Frequency range
And down with Auto-change!
All the highest notes, neither sharp nor flat:
The ear can't hear as high as that,
Still I ought to please any passing bat
With my High Fidelity.

Who made this circuit up for you anyway? Bought it in a shop? What a horrible, shoddy job they fobbed you off with. I'm surprised they let you have it in here! The acoustics are all wrong. Raise the ceiling four feet, put the fireplace from that wall to that wall, and you'll still only get the stereophonic effect if you sit in the bottom of that cupboard. What a horrible shoddy job they've fobbed you off with ... ! You've got your negative feedback coupled in with your push-pull input-output; take that across your red-head pickup to your tweeter, and if you're modding more than eight you're going to get wow on your top-try to bring that down through your rumble filter to your woofer. And what'll you get? Flutter on your bottom!

High Fidelity! F.F.R.R. for me!
I've an opera here that you shan't escape
On miles and miles of recording tape;
High decibel gain
Is easy to obtain;
With the tone control at a single touch
Bel Canto sounds like Double Dutch.
Then I never did care for music much
It's the High Fidelity!


MF: This is a good moment to explain that we don't normally have these things standing around here, but tonight they are recording this, stereophonically in fact, for posterity. So, wherever you're sitting now, it'll be where you'll be on the record. Sit up nice and straight, if any of you feel like rolling in the aisles or being carried out helpless with mirth, this is a jolly good night to do it. Do you want to say hello to posterity?
DS: Hello!
MF: Hello, Posterity. If we move around a bit, they'll use it for demonstration purposes.

[wadia-miester]

Paul,

I've obviously missed this one out, can you give the catalogue number for it please.
The preceptual place the bass appears from does change with each recording, some cuts more obvious than other G3 Johnsonn 'zap' the drum solo is in an arch across the upper centre of the stage a good 3 to 4 feet from the centre of the soundstage.
Yet on track 7 Vai, its firmly in the middle, with the bass 'preceptualy emminating from line directly through your line of listening (front of stage).
Either way its sound sodding good, it is possible to raise the stage of the speakers with out moving them (or raising the cone axis in any way) or changing amps too

[merlin]

Oh dear! Hifi nerd alert!

To be honest, unless you have heard that album on a Tact system, you are nowhere near understanding the staging of the recording ;)

[Dev]

WTF?, this reads like The Devil's post.

[merlin]

Dev,

yeah I know :D

But seriously for a minute, if you listen on most setups you can argue about the position of the various instruments until the cows come home.

Listen on a tact setup, and you are there at the gig. It's difficult to explain the difference but live recordings replayed without the influence of the listening room really do take on a different dimension. Pink floyd's "Pulse" is another good example.

[wadia-miester]

I'm afraid I had the displeasure of that at heathrow this year, although the presentation aspects may have been impressive, the preformance and soul of the recording had been removed by force and throttled through a series driver manipulational correction techiniques that had rendered Mr Vai to playing in a sterile clean room with the emotion pedal switched off, but with a beautiful image and almost 3d staging, great for Quote Ju 'Noddling jazz' & Nora Jones efficenardo's.
Forgive my ignorance Its been long day Mike, and another 1664 will help matters no end

[Paul Ranson]

WM,

It's this (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000005RU2/pd_ka_0/202-3468048-8191843) one.

I'd be interested in 'merlin's' view of the staging. Especially bearing in mind it's a close miked rock recording. But they've made an effort to get the drums sounding good.

Paul

[wadia-miester]

Thanks Paul,
The Live in Japan, Robinson & Glover did a good job on it, but you have all 3 nites to choose from, though Osaka (2nd nite) is generally regarded as the best, The quality of the recording and the band raw energy shine, first nite they we knackard, Tokyo on the last nite was good in places.
Strange kinda of woman (Osaka) is superb. Who did the 98 remaster?

[The Devil]

where did Andy and I ask for you opinion on how we can improve on something that we are already happy with, and even if we asked for your advice, what makes you think you are correct all the time, did you ever consider that you may be wrong.
My point is that if you are happy, why do you care what I think?

[I think that, secretly, you are not too happy with it..]

And no, I have never said that ATC actives are the most accurate speakers in the world. This is because I haven't heard all the speakers in the world. But they are much more accurate than the overstyled rubbish that is pushed as 'hi-fi' these days. I know how good they are because, well, if you listen to them, it's blindingly obvious. And also because of Alan Ball's recording session.

[fox]

A bad recording is still a bad recording "Quod erat demonstrandum" back at you :p

No, a bad recording might be a bad recording but you can't be sure. I've come across many recordings I used to think were badly recorded by as the resolving abilities of the gear gets better its obvious the playback was getting overloaded.

Some examples: The Slits Rough Trade LP "Y" recorded when they were just three screaming bitches showing their knickers and throwing tampons at the audience... This actually sounded like a cacophony when I bought it 30 or so years ago Recorded onto mono compact casette. Never played it since. Put in on the other day and it was raw and live sounding in the way you just don't hear on a modern recording.

http://weare.hacca.jp/slits/image/y3lp_small.jpg

Another? Cabaret Voltaire Live at the YMCA... this time in Stereo but brutal and hard the music may be, the sound was more real and more "live" than the lastest state of the art live recordings I have bought. In both cases it wasn't a cacophony. It was a very real and live sound and that was amazing. A real treasure...

http://orbita.starmedia.com/~subhumans/grupos/cabaret_voltaire/liveatymca.jpg

Likewise I have some private Walkman Pro recordings of a bunch of Nepalese monks (recorder hidden under jacket) banging the crap out of various gongs, blowing horns and chiming bells in order to induce a seizure into a lama -- sounds utterly fantastic through my HiFi. Tried it through a very expensive CJ system with Dunlavy SCVs and it smeared and overloaded in a bigtime stylee. At home its "rea' as I remember being there... A live, original source recording. You can't beat that!

Naah. Don't blame the recording... If my gear can cope with that then so can anyone's -- if you have bad recordings then its more likely that your gear isn't up to the demands of the playback...

PS When I hear a system as villified as Bub's I'd sit up and listen, I'd be interested. So many "great" systems are actually pseudonyms for "expensive" systems owned by a willy-waving c**ts. So much so that £100 ghetto blasters can indeed be more pleasant to listen to many megabucks systems where the music coming out of it has been refined to the point of death. Polite, nothing to say for themselves, boring. A reflection of its owners...

[wadia-miester]

Did the **** forum boys send you over to help out Mr Villified Fox?
I'd agree on the Most of the £30K stuff paint drying at best, but willy waving? in Bubitt's case pot/kettle/black
"sounds utterly fantastic through my HiFi", nothing like a trumpet blowing to ease the nite away sir

[The Devil]

What's the point of having a biggun if no-one gets to know about it?

[merlin]

WM,

I'd be interested in 'merlin's' view of the staging. Especially bearing in mind it's a close miked rock recording. But they've made an effort to get the drums sounding good.

Paul

Paul, I cannot explain the differences properly, but, had you heard what I did you would understand.

Regardless of the mic setup used, the Tact allowed you to hear the auditorium in all it's glory. I very much doubt that WM is talking with any really experience in the matter - a brief exposure in unfamiliar surroundings does not make for a valid judgement IMO.

I used to listen to both the DP album and Pulse regularly when a Tact owner. Never heard a system get close I'm afraid, and that includes those I have heard in the cheltenham area ;)

[analoguekid]

But Fox given that you obviously have similar tatse then thats the kind of response we can expect from you, I said the "the soundstage was no better than on a £100 ghetto blaster, and for what it's worth if you had heard my system which prolly cost a lot less than you and Bubbitt paid for yours, then you could make a comment regardinhg it's sound, as you haven't you can F**K off. T

he Polite boring ones are people like James who insesantly rattle on spouting same old drivel, even when you tell them thats not your point of view they still don't get it, the sad thing as that they really can't see that others also have a point of view and it's different from his, so you like the sound of each others kit, wow, you think you have found the answers, well let me suggest it's you lot that are the BORES.

[fox]

Nah. I always try to pop in on ZeroGain once a week or so. Just to check in on seeing how Bub's been treating the easily-rattled... You guys love it really... go on... admit it you do...

The point I was trying to make is a lot of people blame the recordings as bad but if a mono cassette recording of three screaming bitches throwing tampons at you can sound good then surely it takes supreme talent to screw something up with a reet proper recording studio.

[sideshowbob]

Live at the YMCA is a top record. My favourite CV is still the first album, Mix Up.

AK, you do seem to be getting ever so exercised.

-- Ian

[The Devil]

He's annoyed because he knows I'm right. Every time he plays a CD, the floor goes off...

[fox]

But Fox given that you obviously have similar tatse then thats the kind of response we can expect from you, I said the "the soundstage was no better than on a £100 ghetto blaster, and for what it's worth if you had heard my system which prolly cost a lot less than you and Bubbitt paid for yours, then you could make a comment regardinhg it's sound, as you haven't you can F**K off. The Polite boring ones are people like James who insesantly rattle on spouting same old drivel, even when you tell them thats not your point of view they still don't get it, the sad thing as that they really can't see that others also have a point of view and it's different from his, so you like the sound of each others kit, wow, you think you have found the answers, well let me suggest it's you lot that are the BORES.

Goodness me such attitude. Actually to be honest I think £100 Ghetto Blasters sound pretty good. Its the expensive HiFis touted about by audiophiles that don't tend to sound that much better. IMO of course.

And what's with this 'You Lot?'

Out of interest what answers do you think I have found?

[The Devil]

42, dude.

[analoguekid]

Nah Just getting fed up with buboreitt spouting same old shite and his cronies, self righteous wa**kers, he's on the bloddy ignore list now, he should hear himself, he even bloody professes to know my secret thoughts, is he f***in dillusional, he'll say he's just trying to wind me up or yank my chain, but the sad fact is he really believes what he says.

An then along comes Mr Paul Bordeom, well I'm sorry almighty one for doubting your particular prowess, but you see I listen to the composition, as intended buy the musicians, I don't sit and say "Oh the drums are sounding like right handed, blah blah blah blah,..........drone drone..........bore bore,,,,,," I'm sorry matey but I just enjoy the music, i don't disect it and get my bloody tape measure out and check to see if Ian Gillan has dressed to the left or right, If i didn't know better from others that you are not, then i would deduce from your last few posts that you were a pretentios tosser, please don't come accross like this again Paul it does not become you.

[fox]

Live at the YMCA is a top record. My favourite CV is still the first album, Mix Up.

It is a rather good record. Nag Nag Nag on that is spectacularly top-notch... Especially the bit where the men in the audience are shouting "Feck off you fecking poofte...." only to e drowned out by the drone of the guitar... I also have a copy of "Three Mantras" here which is a lot of fun -- and "This Heat" ... Eyeless in Gaza... Alternative TV's "Vibing up the Senile old Man" (I still have a hard time with that one)... so many 70's noise merchants... so little time...

[sideshowbob]

"Facing Up to the Facts" on Vibing Up The Senile Man is wonderful. The rest of the album's hard going though. Eyeless in Gaza and This Heat are fan-bloody-tastic.

Looks like AK's exploded. Messy.

-- Ian

[analoguekid]

Thanks Ian your last sentence I kinda enjoyed that, Had a shit week at work too, still taking none of it back though.

[The Devil]

Just a little Mana would sort out all your difficulties.

[julian2002]

paul, bub,
i was using that statement as an example of the kind of crap that can be spouted round here i could equally have said 'mana is the most accurate stand', 'naim make the most accurate electronics' or even 'quad make the most accurate speakers' of course you couldn't see the wood for the trees and chose to focus on one that one sentance and ignore the rest of what i was saying. i would have expected better of you both but clearly i was wrong. well at least i tried.
how bub can say that what he heard after his little recording soire was accurate beggars belief. hearing the effect of his room twice (once on the recording and once on playback) would be enough to torpedo that one for sure. merlins right without a tact system (or similar) you've not heard accurate from hi-fi. but then this is the same do that caused a pc to magically work better when placed on the altar of mana if i'm not mistaken. i would suggest that psycoactive chemicals were present or perhaps that paul mckenna hypnotist bloke was in residence at chez bub.
cheers


julian

[kermit]

Wow

[wadia-miester]

Again Very messy, especially with Fox's overshoot

[wadia-miester]

Any trick cyclists reading this would have a field day. and the aloof pretentiousness of the 'sobbus musicarlius' would not doubt feature highly on their analylitical paritial lobes, in essense erning their fee

[TonyL]

Alternative TV's "Vibing up the Senile old Man"

Quality stuff, I'll dig it out for a spin soon, may I also recommend Wire’s Document and Eyewitness!

I really must get some more Cabs, I've only got 2x45 and a couple of other singles, which is frankly quite embarrassing - I saw them live somewhere around 1980 in Liverpool though, a good gig.

Tony.

[sideshowbob]

Tony, if you haven't already got this you should:

http://www.posteverything.com/artists/release.php?id=7967

The Mix Up, Voice of America, and Red Mecca are the CV albums to have. After Chris Watson left they were never quite the same.

-- Ian

[fox]

Quality stuff, I'll dig it out for a spin soon, may I also recommend Wire’s Document and Eyewitness!

I really must get some more Cabs, I've only got 2x45 and a couple of other singles, which is frankly quite embarrassing - I saw them live somewhere around 1980 in Liverpool though, a good gig.

I was going to recommend Wire's excellent Pink Flag but with the disturbing image of me and Bub "doing a Pisces" I think I'd better not. I think early cabs are where its at. As Ian says Mix Up (with badly letrasetted cover) and Live at YMCA are great places to start. Sheffield's finest. I never saw CV but I did get to see the Slits but in the days after they let you see their slits..Supporting the Pop Group splinter group Rip Rig and Panic with Don Cherry. Neneh was around by that time. Speaking of RR&P I always liked "Knee Deep In Shit" from their first 2 x 45 "God". Great band, flashes of brilliance and the rest was a pretty good racket also.

[sideshowbob]

Talking of ATV, mustn't forget their Live At The Rat Club, recorded, from the audience, on a portable cassette recorder, by Genesis P-Orridge. Gen's sarky comments throughout are very entertaining.

-- Ian

[sideshowbob]

Amazing that the ATV is on CD, I had no idea it had ever been rereleased.

Apparently people who bought it also bought this:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000E65ZV/qid%3D1094256591/026-0880828-4870038

These people have taste. The "Punk Rock Stars"/"Rat City" single was ace ("Rat City, it's pretty shitty", they don't write them like that any more).

Never saw TG live, to my eternal dismay. Saw PTV a few times, but I always regret not seeing TG.

-- Ian

[The Devil]

how bub can say that what he heard after his little recording soire was accurate beggars belief. hearing the effect of his room twice (once on the recording and once on playback) would be enough to torpedo that one for sure.
Julian. Er, <ahem> you really have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, do you?

[TonyL]

but I always regret not seeing TG.

Me too, the stuff they did early on was bizarre / sick / outrageous in exactly the right way. The fairly recent and substantial TG biog Wreckers of Civilisation is an essential read. Highly recommended.

Tony.

[Robbo]

I wonder what happened to Matt@nearfield. He's probably come to the conclusion that this forum has more than its fair share of nerds, raving lunatics and zealots and buggered off by now :(

[Saab]

BTW regards DP's Made in Japan... I played it the other day and mine (a US edition I picked up last time I was there) appears to be mixed the right way round... (Richie to the right, yeah?) I think my speakers are wired in phase but left is to right and right is to left. But as I sit with my back to my speakers It all evens out in the end doesn't it?

Should I be worried?

Yes you should.You play a brilliant piece of music,and instead of picking up a tennis racket and head banging,you sit and listen to your equipment,presumably playing with yourself at the same time.Truly a sad HIFI geek story.Who the fvck cares which way you sit when Ritchie starts the solo in Child In Time? blimey,you need help

[joel]

Yes you should.You play a brilliant piece of music,and instead of picking up a tennis racket
Oops slight IRONY failure, there, Saab.Maybe you should hahve a coffee before posting. I know it helps me in the mornings. Foxy is more into music and more knowledgeable about it than you might imagine.

Fox:
If you ever feel like copying that excellent sounding Tibetan tape to CD...

FWIW, my 1972 Pioneer pressing of Live in Japan is also the "wrong way round". Glorious "fat" sound they got on that album, too. Marvellous stuff.

[julian2002]

bub,
obviously the laws of physics are suspended in your flat. is what you are saying that the recording didn't pic up the accoustics of your room or that your system is unaffected by the accoustics of your room or perhaps both?
unfortunately i'm now making the tactical mistake of arguaing with an idiot. you've dragged me down to your level and are starting to beat me with experience so i'll return to the real world and stop now.
cheers


julian

[The Devil]

bub,
you've dragged me down to your level and are starting to beat me with experience
By that logic, you couldn't replay master tapes in the studio. I have the experience of a live recording in my living room. The room was chosen for some very good reasons.

When you do have some experience, get back to me.

Calling me an idiot undermines you.

[analoguekid]

Ju let me make a suggestion (got the idea from Andy) got to user cp.........you know the drill, actually kinda funky.

Oh and appologies to Paul and Fox, I was having a bad day and stupidly ley Bubbitt get to me, and consequently (as you seemingly were sympathisers), you got the brunt of it to, good nights sleep and feeling better now. :)

[wadia-miester]

So James your experiance with this 'Micky mouse recording session' at chez Bub has obviously given you a PHD degree in studio acoustics and record production & mastering, with all the assocciated knowledge that surrounds a professional engineer of 20 years + in the business
I salute you, you've brough a new meaning to fast-trak, forgive here me James, do you think that smacks of just a little of male cow exsrection ?

[merlin]

I have the experience of a live recording in my living room. The room was chosen for some very good reasons.


:D What were they then Bub ?

[fox]

(Goodness me Bub what have you done to these poor people to make them so twitchy?).

Me too, the stuff they did early on was bizarre / sick / outrageous in exactly the right way. The fairly recent and substantial TG biog Wreckers of Civilisation is an essential read. Highly recommended.

I love that quote... and you're right I should hunt down a copy. That was from an unsuspecting Daily Mail review of Throbbing Gristle's 20 Jazz Funk Greats wasn't it? And they looked so nice and appealingly retro-trendy on the cover in their sweaters, jackets and smiles...

http://ubl.artistdirect.com/Images/Sources/AMGCOVERS/music/cover200/drd900/d904/d90497csxld.jpg

TG were very very good because In those days I was seeing almost a band a night but I do remember the one time I saw TG because It was the first time I saw a bottle fight break out. Many ensued since but your first bottle fight amongst Punks vs everyone else was one of those rites of passage moments for me. Conversely I'd loved to have seen Psychic TV. Lots of rumours about those gigs. Probably untrue.

Joel, I was thinking last night I really need to transfer this tape recording to CDR before print through and Mice take its toll (along with loads of audience tapes I made of The Au Pairs, Kleenex, Blood Donor, and various Rough Trade stuff). I see no reason why I can't make 3-4 or even more copies. I do rather enjoy this brand of stuff...

[analoguekid]

Hey Merlin, did you not know that the air is rareified in Bubbitts flat, the reasons for his lack of accoustics, I think all the air molecules had a discussion with the wall molecules, and subsequently all the local molecules got together had a conflab and came to an agreement thaat they wouldn't react as they normally do, "for years we have been behaving by the the laws of physics" they said "but now he has this magical angle iron, we may as well not bother" said a spokesmolecule.

Either that or he is talking P*sh.

I'll leave others to decide which one is closest to the truth.

[julian2002]

james,
most studios are either designed to be as accousically neutral as possible or are treated to be so. none of these treatments to my knowledge include stacks of resonant angle iron, sofas, pianos, chez lounge, etc.
my lack of 'experience', although you don't qualify with what so i'm at a disadvantage when arguing this point, doesn't preclude me from using common sense to come up with the fact that 2 sets of room distortions, one recorded and one from playback don't make a distortion free performance. the fact that you think it does proves my second point rather than undermining me.
if you want distortion free - buy a tact. if you want something you enjoy, stick with what you've got. that's what my 'limited experience' tells me.

ak,
nothing like a 2 mile walk and a bit of bub baiting to get the blood pumping on a saturday morning. i quite like bub actually, he sticks to his convictions and can take shit as well as give it.
cheers


julian

[merlin]

i quite like bub actually, he sticks to his convictions and can take shit as well as give it.
cheers
julian

Couldn't agree more, although I suspect some easily wound up members would rather see him take is convictions and and stick them next to his shit ;)

[sideshowbob]

Wreckers of Civilisation is indeed a very good book, unlike most of these things, it's well-written and takes the group seriously.

What everyone really needs is the TG24 and TG+ live box sets. 34 hours of live TG, the real deal.

Fox, you didn't miss much not seeing PTV live. They promised so much, but never really delivered. Unless endless videos of Gen's heavily pierced knob floats your boat (does nothing for me!)

-- Ian

[analoguekid]

Ju I didn't say I didn't like Bub only that he is talking shit (as usual) and I'm kinda fed up replying to his "advice" when I never asked for it in the first place.

[analoguekid]

Merlin see my answer above, I'm not easily wound up, had a bad day yesterday what with work and traffic, and his drivel kinda just added to it.

The problem with James is he gives advice that we don't ask for for problems tha we don't have, then when we react he says he was only winding us up, the sad thing is he REALLY DOES BELIEVE HE IS RIGHT, and the rest of us don't have a different point of view.

[joel]

Joel, I was thinking last night I really need to transfer this tape recording to CDR before print through and Mice take its toll (along with loads of audience tapes I made of The Au Pairs, Kleenex, Blood Donor, and various Rough Trade stuff). I see no reason why I can't make 3-4 or even more copies. I do rather enjoy this brand of stuff...
Fox,
Sounds very good indeed. TonyL has been educating me in the way of Au Pairs etc, so I'd happily go for some of that, too.
I have a few bits n bobs in this general genre I could send in return - nothing very DIY, though. I'll try to make amends.
I think you would like the "Pygmy and Thunder album".
PM/email if you're interested.

[bottleneck]

I always insert a mental 'IMHO' before any statement made as fact.

It becomes a lot easier to cope with statements of opinion stated as absolute fact when we know mentally that what people say is their own opinion and nothing more.

As a wise moderator once told me, we have to assume that the people who use the forum use a ''bullshit filter'' when reading forum posts. Im sure thats the case with anyone who's been here a while.

I only worry for new forum members and people browsing the forum wondering whether they should join. I feel a little disheartened when I see new posters only post a couple of times and then leave. I wish they were given a better welcome and made to feel at home. We need new posters to add diversity and interest to the forum.

Chris

[sideshowbob]

the sad thing is he REALLY DOES BELIEVE HE IS RIGHT, and the rest of us don't have a different point of view.

Everyone believes they're right, surely? Why on earth do you let it bother you?

-- Ian

[sideshowbob]

Fox, we should probably swap some stuff. I have hours of things you'd like, and it sounds like you have hours of things I like.

-- Ian

[analoguekid]

Everyone believes they're right, surely? Why on earth do you let it bother you?

-- Ian


Ian everyone does believe they are right, the difference is the rest of us realise other people have a different point of view, we may offer advice, but do not rattle on about it if that advice is not taken.

Anyway I'm not letting it bother me anymore, had other issues yesterday and this was prolly a way of getting the frustration off me chest kinda "kick the cat" syndrome.

[analoguekid]

Fox, we should probably swap some stuff. I have hours of things you'd like, and it sounds like you have hours of things I like.

-- Ian


This music discusion is a bit OT, shouldn't you be having it in the Music section :D

[julian2002]

ak,
i think james does get the raw end of the deal sometimes. at the start of this thread he made a reasonable reply to the initial question based on his own likes. he was met with some light ribbing and things escalated.
this seems to be the way with his posts i've noticed. someone will ask 'what cdp should i buy', bub will reply 'don't waste your money try mana' and then a bunch of people will pile on with the anti mana sentiments. bub then replys with some absolutist absurdity and off we go.
from the clams of those who like it, mana is an acceptable suggestion to improve most of the replay chain. the fact that some love it and some don't is a subjective observation and therefore is pointless arguing about - it is fun to argue about though.
cheers


julian

[analoguekid]

Julian
I haven't fallen out with James and what you say is true, Ive just decided not to read his posts regarding **** he's a bit over zealous in this regard, I have nothing against the use of mana, or it's suggestion, just the absurdity that it is a universal panacea coz Bub says so. Had a really shitty day yesterday, and I shoulda left answering him, and fox and Paul until this morning, when I wasn't so wound up, ah well another lesson learned.

[julian2002]

ak,
fair enough. i was just saying that i think james' responses that mana is the be all and end all are magnified just to get a rise out of people after he feels he's been attacked for his liking it. having a shitty day happens to us all, i rekon you need to listen to some music ;)
cheers


julian

[TonyL]

That was from an unsuspecting Daily Mail review of Throbbing Gristle's 20 Jazz Funk Greats wasn't it? And they looked so nice and appealingly retro-trendy on the cover in their sweaters, jackets and smiles...

The cover worked - I found my copy (complete with the rare poster) misfiled and misunderstood in the ‘jazz / soul’ section of a second hand record shop for a couple of quid!

Tony.

[analoguekid]

ak,
i think james' responses that mana is the be all and end all are magnified just to get a rise out of people after he feels he's been attacked for his liking it.


I used to think that too,......now i'm not so sure,

Some people are so wrapped up in their own beleifs that they fail to see that there are other points of view that contradict theirs, and have equal validity.

[sideshowbob]

By expressing a point of view you are automatically implying that other points of view are wrong. Adding "IMHO" makes no difference one way or another.

Fact is, Bub genuinely believes what he believes about Mana, but he also likes winding people up, and you do seem easily wound up AK.

-- Ian

[analoguekid]

The difference Ian is you beleive cables are a bit snake oil, but you also accept that some believe in them and make their choices accordingly, you don't then rattle on spouting Sh*T as if it's fact, FWIW my floor doesn't vibrate any more than his, FACT, and all this without £9K worth of snake oil, TBH apart from nice grumbly bass, the sound he is acheiving is a bit ordinary to these ears, I had just as good with an MF system, I have since moved on though.

I think his beef is he couldn't beleive how good the sound was at my place one of his first questions was "what are the retail prices?" when you come over to someone's gaff to hear some music, it's not polite to bring your most difficult recordings and then try and disect the system to show it's inadequacies, we were supposed to be listening to music, not the Hifi, and TBH he was the only one that noticed these inadequacies, he then goes on to spout all this rubbish as if it were fact.

I know he wound me up yesterday and yes I did rise to the bait, for reasons already mentioned, but the fact remains that he is a boor, how are we meant to respect his opinion when he has no respect for ours.

[bottleneck]

AK - out of interest, you say that your speakers are on the floor.

Have you tried to decouple them with a seismic sink, a stone block or anything else?

Ive found with a wooden floor worthwhile gains were made in my system.

You may well have tried this, I just wondered because criticism has been levied at the way your speakers are coupled to the room.

NB
If the original poster is still reading, I'd reccomend starting a new thread on reccomended systems in your price range (giving room dimensions etc) if thats something you'd like advice on. You will get 100 different answers though!

Chris

[penance]

Good morning all:)

Julian,

penance, please stop work on your prof farnsworth stylee doomsday device you've been working on in your spare room.


Sorry, i shall cease further work on the project. Maybe i can turn it into a Peruvian nasal flute.

[analoguekid]

Chris

I have a concrete floor, this has well insulated laminate flooring, that has subsequently been covered with thick carpet and underlay, TBH i don't have oddles of bass going through my floor, I tried some paving slabs but could detect no difference, my speakers are pretty inert and are spiked into alu legs that are affixed to cabinet (they are made this way), the only time I have a bass problem is a silly volume and with this being a timber framed house the walls can vibrate in sympathy, I know my room isn't perfect, but it's not something that isolation can sort out, I will be looking into room treatments when we move and I have a dedicated listening room, My rig takes over enough of the living room without resorting to room treatments, I like the way it sounds at the mo so not really worried about it.

[wadia-miester]

So the Gerbil's got a instrement to play now then eh? he's a lucky bugger!

[penance]

He carries a tune remarkably well.
Indeed, he is center stage (we only have mono!)

[wadia-miester]

Humm, are you going to call him Linny? and does he do Demo's? (without the aid of a chair?)

[penance]

No naim decided as yet. Demo's: we are taking bookings but do need to complete his house training before we confirm the date. (messy carpets after)

[wadia-miester]

prehaps Bubbit could use him as a tune reference, failing that great at hifi shows

[analoguekid]

Would you guys mind letting others in on this, else refer to PM Puleese! :confused:


EDIT: Hang on just re read it, with you now.

Andy, you're not thinking in trying something like on that radio clip, are you? :yikes:

[analoguekid]

What about calling him "Bubbitt"?

[analoguekid]

Come on only 16, no make that 15 more post to go, WOWEE

[analoguekid]

PS back to old self. 14....

[penance]

well, i wasnt going to get personali involved. Maybe video it and start a website.
I am sure a non flamable tube would be a much better idea.

[leonard smalls]

I really must get some more Cabs, I've only got 2x45 and a couple of other singles, which is frankly quite embarrassing - I saw them live somewhere around 1980 in Liverpool though, a good gig.

Tony.
Was that at the Empire?
If so I was there too - I remember sticking my head in the bass bins (who knows why, yoof n'all!)
Anyone remember Essential Logic?

[julian2002]

bubbit is a corruption of hobbit. a well know underground (or under EARTH) dwelling creature from literature,
as bub primarily subscribes to a FLAT EARTH point of view in his choice of equipment this somehow got corrupted into calling all flat earthers hobbits. et viola there you are. the twisty tortuous path wended by tonys brain to get to calling bub - bubbit.
cheers


julian

[analoguekid]

And a torch, some cheese, oh and some string to tie round it's neck for easy retrieval.
nearly forgot, better add 2 small pairs of rubber booties, one those claws are bound to be pretty sharp, and two your're gonna need a fine nail brush if ye don't cobver the gerbils feet.

[penance]

not my Gerbil, why should i care ;)

[analoguekid]

Cause it might walk over yer butty as you are filming, causing you to panic, dropping the camera on your pint knocking it over and drenching the camera and sloshing a big gloop of lager onto yer newly finished record deck, at this point you grab the hamster and drop kick it straight through one of the cones on your new meadowlarck, as you are sobbing, merlin looks up causing wm to fall over into your other speaker sendit crashing down onto whats left of your hifi, all this commotion wakes up the missus who comes down the stairs to find, her room trashed, you sobbing whilst holding her now very limp gerbil, wm wearing rubber gloves and surgical mask, holding a maglight in his mouth, and muttering over and over "musta chewed through the string, next time need to use that O***A, steel wire from our hotrod, gtinutterbas**rd full fat model, that'll hold him", and of course Merlin on the floor with his trouseies round his ankles.

Not a true story, but it could get messy, best stick with protection.

This also applies to single rubber booties usually supplied in packs of three, don't use these at yer peril, as it gets messy, real messy :D

[penance]

Hell, I never thought of that!


/goes off to put condom over meadowlarks....

[analoguekid]

Does the bell bit on the end dance in time to the music, like one of those dancing flower things thatwere around a while ago.

[penance]

OK, now im lost.

Oim orf to zumerzet soon to partake in cider suppage and late night partee:)

[analoguekid]

On the big condom for yer speakers, the collecting bit at the end, ohh never mind.

Well you see and enjoy yourself, and remember to 'old on with both 'ands. :)

[lordsummit]

Will the felching help Penances piles?