My speaker quest....new contenders

[batfink]

Well, I'm still looking for some new speakers to partner my kit and while I was out today, I managed to get to demo a few. I wouldn't normally go to Sevenoaks (heard a lot of bad press about them) but I was suitably impressed. No dealer sat there tapping his foot to the speakers he wants me to buy, he just left me to it.

First up were the B&W 602S3's that I've been wanting to listen to for some time now. They offered a good, detailed sound with plenty of deep bass. The presentation was very forward and they were certainly very lively with my kit. My only problem was that the bass was maybe a little overpowering and not as tight as I would like, but overall, I thought they were good value.

Next up - the Kef Q3 (I haven't listened to floorstanders before so wanted to give some a go). The bass on these boxes was just how I like it. Very tight and clean sounding. Unfortunately, that was the only strong point (apart from the stunning looks). The sound was much more laid back (read 'sleepy') and there wasn't as much detail which didn't impress me (I place detail high on my agenda). Not bad, but not for me.

Finally, I tried the Monitor Audio Silver S5's. I haven't heard much about MA but thought I'd give them a go. They are very compact floorstanders and would probably fit my room nicely. Anyway, the sound - it was very much a halfway house. Lots of detail resolution and a very bright, clean sound with plenty of bass. The bass wasn't as deep as I would have liked, but overall, I was suitably impressed and thought they offered a bold, forward presentation that certainly wouldn't send you to sleep. They instantly hit the spot. The only thing I couldn't decide was whether the sound would become fatiguing over a long period of time.

That was all I had time to listen to, but I would be interested to hear anyone's opinion's of MA speakers (I can't find anything on the S5's). What are MA's like over long periods of time?

Cheers.

[liamjf]

At the risk of becoming boring, I have to mention (AGAIN!) that vickers hi-fi sell the MA silver8is for £450. This is a bargain. They do need a lot of running in (at least 100 hours) and so any demo pair of silvers is probably not hem at their best. The s5s are the new range (very well respected too) but the 8is (and even more so the 9is - £500;even more of a bargain) will go much lower.
Plenty of online reviews of silver 8/9is :MILD:

BTW, I have a pair of 8is and I love them.

[cookiemonster]

Those B&W will tighten nicely with some plentiful current and tweaky things. Were you using the C350 presumably? My old QED cable accentuated the forward treble too - not sure what you used in the demo. Have to be careful with these. 'Cause they can sound very upfront with the wrong gear. Were they new or run-in??

Curious why you think the MA's might be fatiguing? How does the bass compare to the 602s?

[mick parry]

if you have no objections to buying second hand is a pair of Linn Isobariks. They are fantastic bargins and just fill the room with sound. Linn reckon they would be charging around £5k if they were making them today.

You need only pay £400-600 for a good pair.

Regards

Mick

[batfink]

Originally posted by cookiemonster
Curious why you think the MA's might be fatiguing? How does the bass compare to the 602s?

I thought they may become fatiguing because I'm not used to such a lively sound. My current Kefs are quite restrained and laid-back and I'm not used to a brighter sound. Then again, that's one criticism I have of my system now - it is a little too relaxed and sleepy and it would be nice to have a brighter, more lively sound.

Compared to the 602s, the bass was pretty good. Not as clean and tight as I would expect from a floorstander (compared to the KEFs anyway) but also not overpowering. It seemed to integrate well and it certainly dug down deep. More than anything, it was the treble and midrange that grabbed me. Lots of scale and resolution with more detail than expected.

Another plus point could be that SWMBO will probably like them. They have a nice real wood finish and they take up a lot less space than the 602s (I think I need a dedicated listening room to avoid such issues :mad: ). Cost would be about the same though as I'd have to invest in some smaller stands for the 602s.

My only real worry about them is they are rear-ported and I wouldn't be able to put them too far away from the wall (should be able to manage 30cm though). Anyone know if Sevenoaks do home demo?

[Curt]

Micks idea is a good one, second hand speakers should be looked at if you can dem them.
Another would be Dynaudio Contour 1.1's.
They have a silk dome tweeter which IMO is much more accurate than metal dome affairs and have really solid bass as long as your equipment can do tight solid bass.
They are small so work well in UK rooms.
Be careful though as you may be hearing your Amps/CDP bloomy/fruity bass rather than the speakers short comings you are currently trying.

Curt

[batfink]

Originally posted by liamjf
At the risk of becoming boring, I have to mention (AGAIN!) that vickers hi-fi sell the MA silver8is for £450. This is a bargain. They do need a lot of running in (at least 100 hours) and so any demo pair of silvers is probably not hem at their best. The s5s are the new range (very well respected too) but the 8is (and even more so the 9is - £500;even more of a bargain) will go much lower.
Plenty of online reviews of silver 8/9is :MILD:

BTW, I have a pair of 8is and I love them.

You're right, that is a bargain, but for two things :

1) I don't live anywhere near York (but pass by fairly often)

2) I think they'd be too much for my room.

I think the reason the S5's seemed so good is they are a very compact floorstander and as MA say, they work well in rooms of almost any size. My room is at the level where a good pair of standmounts or some compact floorstanders would fit in nicely (IMHO). I liked the B&Ws but am thinking that they may be too big for the room (they looked huge compared to both floorstanders I tried) and think they may take over the room a little (that's fine if I lived on my own, but I don't know how my girlfriend would take it;) )

[joel]

Harbeth Compact 7 ESII (second hand)

These are tools, the rest are toys :JOEL:

[liamjf]

are the 5s much smaller than the 8is? I've never thought the 8s as particularly big and I have them about 40cm into the room which works fine. If you don't live near York you could always try and dem the 8s elsewhere :eek:

liam.

[timpy]

I'm worried that the problem you might end up with is twofold.

Firstly the bass of the C350 is a bit cumbersome. It's solid and "fruity" as had been said, but timing and control are not it's forte. With smaller speakers this is a bonus, but as the speakers get larger it gets more of a problem, until the point where you get some really capable floorstanders, when it really seems to get out of it's depth. With colourful speakesrs like the old Tannoy 638 or even the more forgiving KEF Q55 or Neat Mystiques, the bass is all over the place from one track to another. It's the same for the old Nad 317 and the C370 as well from experience.

Secondly, the slightly loose "technicolour" presentation of the NAD may well leave you with speakers that don't work well when you change your amp. If I were you I'd go for something more like the Mordaunt Short or Heybrook models If you can get hold of some Castle's to try, they are far more alive than they used to be (I've always liked them though they've always been engaging if not always as exciting;) ).

These should complement the NAD in different ways without making a meal of it's bass or over exuburace else where (it tends to spotlight loud things in the mix sometimes coming across as disjointed). If you want small floorstanders with the NAD, try the Rega Jura, that will work well with it I expect, it's fruity to balance their drier and tight, and they are well suited to smaller rooms as a bonus. Worth a try I think, don't let the dealer put you off.

Cheers

[TonyL]

Firstly the bass of the C350 is a bit cumbersome. It's solid and "fruity" as had been said, but timing and control are not it's forte.

IMHO this is the weakest link, not the Kefs. Far more bang per buck will be had from upgrading the amp and source than the speakers at this level. The Nad is a competent budget amp (which is all it sets out to be), but suggestions to partner it with real high end speakers such as some of the recommendations above are IMHO totally wrong. I wouldn't be surprised if the Nad didn't actually blow up if asked to drive Isobariks!

I don’t know the Arcam CD, so I will leave that alone, but if I were the owner of this system I’d definitely be looking at a more upmarket amp first. I’d personally recommend an old second hand Naim Nait or cheaper pre / power combo such as a 42 / 110, Densen Beat 100, any Exposure integrated etc etc. I bet those Kefs will surprise you with a better amp upstream.

Tony.

[Steven Toy]

A Densen B100 would definitely make those Kefs sing, as would a Rega Mira.

Crestas are great little speakers and thrive on decent integrated amps.

[batfink]

Originally posted by TonyL
IMHO this is the weakest link, not the Kefs. Far more bang per buck will be had from upgrading the amp and source than the speakers at this level. The Nad is a competent budget amp (which is all it sets out to be), but suggestions to partner it with real high end speakers such as some of the recommendations above are IMHO totally wrong. I wouldn't be surprised if the Nad didn't actually blow up if asked to drive Isobariks!

I don’t know the Arcam CD, so I will leave that alone, but if I were the owner of this system I’d definitely be looking at a more upmarket amp first. I’d personally recommend an old second hand Naim Nait or cheaper pre / power combo such as a 42 / 110, Densen Beat 100, any Exposure integrated etc etc. I bet those Kefs will surprise you with a better amp upstream.

Tony.
I certainly won't be upgrading the Arcam for a while - I've only had it 6 months. The original plan was to upgrade the speakers next, then the amp (I'm thinking along the lines of Cyrus here). The speakers are good, but aren't getting the best out of my gear (IMHO). After all, they were only £90 from Richers. I'm looking for some lively speakers that will withstand a decent amp upgrade in a year or so.

[cookiemonster]

Be careful though as you may be hearing your Amps/CDP bloomy/fruity bass rather than the speakers short comings you are currently trying.

It's solid and "fruity" as had been said, but timing and control are not it's forte.

Secondly, the slightly loose "technicolour" presentation of the NAD

it tends to spotlight loud things in the mix sometimes coming across as disjointed

real high end speakers such as some of the recommendations above are IMHO totally wrong. I wouldn't be surprised if the Nad didn't actually blow up if asked to drive Isobariks

:D :D :D

OK - first off - my impression is that a few individuals seem to be skirting around the suggestion that in fact they think NAD amplification is crap. Well i can only speak personally, but i would not be offended if anyone did indeed think that, being a NAD (C370) owner myself. In fact i would prefer that, as it seems you are trying to be diplomatic in your comments rather than brutishly truthful. Anyway, to continue,

could you explain what 'fruity' means? And 'technicolour'?
My own opinion is that the NAD (C370 at least) exerts excellent control over the bass, and is not flabby or 'disjointed'(?). However, i will agree with Timpy (informed, constructive, helpful post BTW :) ), that timing is not it's forte, which can create potential problems. However, in my experience, this can be compensated for by good kit matching, to try and compensate, for what can potentially be a bit 'sluggish'. I'm personally looking to add a power (Densen?!) of some description, or at least demoing to see if things can be improved on a budget.

I'm not sure what TonyL means by the amp potentially 'blowing up'? NAD's are widely critiscised, but the one factor whih most will confess to is the ability of the amps to supply a good current, and exert strong control over tricky impedence loads. My choice of the C370 was primarily because of this reason. The B&602S3's which i own require plenty of current to get the best out of them, and at the budget i had to play with at the time, There was frankly no other alternative, which supplied this need with the same facilities etc. The warm/laid back nature of the NAD also complements the forward B&W very well. All synergy.

real high end speakers such as some of the recommendations above

I'm not sure he has been looking at even moderately priced speakers?? Some of the suggestions for s/h are more expensive but hardly 'top-end'.

His dilemma now is whether or not to keep the amp as well as change the speakers. I suspect his wallet may be damaged.
The above recommendations are excellent and worthy of his consideration, but if he told you that he has a total budget of say £300(?not sure), what would you recommend in the same instance.

As you point out Batfink - factor in cost for DECENT stands for the B&W if you chose those - it makes all the difference.

I think you are leaning towards the MA though.

Good luck anyway - hope you get what you want mate, after all the time and patience.

cheers:)

[wadia-miester]

Someone mention Fruity?, mid range colouration?, over ripe and fruity sound, fully than normal bass?, that'll be time for an upgrade sir? Unless your happy with it :) said the sevenoaks salesman to the potential customer
The MA has a 'Tighter and cleaner' sound than the B+W's, leaner bass too (MA's), they are more dynamic, however the B+W's are more fuller and warm, MA's can be cold and clinical but accurate, you need to go back to back in your own room, and as Dino says, bare in mind the prices of good stands, they can make a world of difference. WM

[batfink]

Cheers cookiemonster, that was a well informed post. You are right that many seem to be trying to tell me my NAD is crap, but at the moment, I like it.

Recommendations such as the Linn's, Dynaudio Contours and Harbeth's just won't be taken into consideration. I know they are far too 'high-end' for my kit (even if the second hand price is about what I'm willing to pay).

I'm looking to pay a max. of £400 (450 at a push). That means some £300 standmounts with good stands (better than my current Nexus 6 anyway) or £400 on floorstanders. I'm also taking into consideration that I expect my new speakers to last longer than any of my other kit and don't intend upgrading them again for a good few years. Therefore,I want to get some decent speakers, but not OTT like the Harbeths.

I've heard my NAD with a variety of speakers now and it hasn't struggled to drive any - it has plenty of current and power to drive everything I have been looking at.

Timpy - that was a very helpful post. As many of you may know, I have been desperately trying to find a local Castle dealer as I would really like to give some a go, but I can't find any anywhere. The only place I know is Lintone Audio in Gateshead, but I won't be up there for a while now.

[bottleneck]

Cookie,

I wouldnt say people have been anti - NAD - in fact people seem to be saying they are great.

You're quite right that budget will ultimately determine the wisest step.

Id definately agree with Tony L etc that I would look at changing the amp if an upgrade is on the cards however.

IME driving a budget pair of speakers with an expensive amp has been more rewarding than driving better speakers with a fairly basic amp.

For example, I used to drive Ruark Talisman IIs (£700 speakers) with a musical fidelity integrated (£500 80w p/ch) - and to be honest despite the 89db sensitivity of the speakers it wasnt a brilliant match.

Im not that familiar with the specific model of NAD, and it may be a pocket powerhouse, so I'll reserve judgement.

I do definately think you should think about demoing a £1000-£1500 amp though, to see if you like the change it makes to your system.

If you do, you could get an equivelant second hand well within the £500ish you seem to have... especially if chopping in the amp as a part ex.

Dealers like www.emporium.co.uk will take trades on second hand kit.


You may right off this advice because you really want some new speakers, but if you dont try an amp I think youd be doing yourself a disservice.

Cheers
Chris

[TonyL]

OK - first off - my impression is that a few individuals seem to be skirting around the suggestion that in fact they think NAD amplification is crap.

Not me, I have nothing against the Nads. I just think it is bad advice to stick a pair of 800+ quid speakers on the end of a 200 quid integrated. Little speakers like the Kefs are remarkably capable if driven by a more upmarket amp. My advice would be to do the amp change first, then buy a pair of speakers that matches the new amp.

I'm not sure what TonyL means by the amp potentially 'blowing up'? NAD's are widely critiscised, but the one factor whih most will confess to is the ability of the amps to supply a good current, and exert strong control over tricky impedence loads.

The Isobarik is a large sealed box speaker with six drive units and a very complex crossover. There are many amps costing many thousands that make a total botch up of driving them. They are famed for making amps pop their output fuses! As an example I tried a Krell KSA 100 into my old pair and it made a right mess of controlling them, a 200 quid integrated regardless how good stands next to no chance.

Tony.

[cookiemonster]

Chris

FYI

Batfink has a C350 which is £300 60W/ch

(I have a C370 which is £450 120W/ch )



Just to clarify - your post was ambiguous - Batfink is upgrading not me.

IME driving a budget pair of speakers with an expensive amp has been more rewarding than driving better speakers with a fairly basic amp.

Yes - but i think there are thresholds to this theory - he has £90 speakers - clearly improvements in amplification would be wasted at the moment. I think if he is happy to live with the NAD for a while, with new speakers, then can worry about a new amp later on. All within context.



Someone mention Fruity?, mid range colouration?, over ripe and fruity sound, fully than normal bass?, that'll be time for an upgrade sir? Unless your happy with it said the sevenoaks salesman to the potential customer
:D :D

[cookiemonster]

The Isobarik is a large sealed box speaker with six drive units and a very complex crossover. There are many amps costing many thousands that make a total botch up of driving them

Sorry, my mistake, must not have read correctly - i didn't realise you were reffering specifically to the Isobariks.



To clarify further - i was just teasing - i thought many of the comments on here were DIPLOMATIC regarding NAD, when i realise that many people, not all, think they are crap. I got the impression you were being courteous rather than honest and entirly truthful. :) Personally, i take it on the chin, so i'm not fussed what opinion is - it's only an amp - it was just an observation. Although there has since been a backlash of +ive comments :D

Careful folks, you'll have lurking HFC goers thinking its safe to come out and play ;) :D

Anyway, the best bit is that we have been able to lower the tone of Zerogain ;) with a discussion about the merits (or lack of) of budget amp/speakers in a civilised and productive fashion.:) :MILD: Only teasing. Some good points on here.


Tone - can u bring that Densen over??

[timpy]

Amp or speakers?

It's a tough call, there are better amps in the world, the Nad isn't bad, but I prefer a more cohesive presentation rather than the slightly "over cooked" sound that isn't very even handed, and at worst can make music sound as though it has been through some sort of (fairly innocuous) scrambler with all the best (loudest and most interesting) bits boosted and then thrown back together again. The Nad is colourful and full of life (if not speed), but to use an analogy, for me it's the equivalent of a quick car which hasn't had the handling fully sorted. It has all the right ingredients, but somehow ends up less than the sum of it's parts if the speakers tend towards revealing / need good control.

Also I'm with TonyL. I wouldn't recommend Isobariks for the system anymore than I'd recommend a Ferrari F40 as a second car for the school run / trip to Waitose etc. Even in pancake land, there are a number of competent amps thought of as unsuitable for driving these things. Also system balance does need to be kept in check. I don't much like Isobariks personally anyway, but lets not get bogged down here.

However, IME the Cresta 2s are speakers that have caused me a great deal of trouble in the past with system matching, room interaction etc. They can be good (not usually very good unfortunately) but life is too short, and usually they seem to exhibit all the same qualities of the NAD at the lower end. I classify them as the all too common situation these days with a makers budget range, i.e. need a cheap range to speakers to compete with the likes of Mission who are cleaning up at the budget end, so build a small cheap speaker and bung an enormous port on it for grunt becasue the punters are going to want bass. To my mind this seems how the Cresta 2 was formed, and it is all the more disappointing considering the competition, B&W DM302, Tannoy MX2 etc, Acoustic Energy Aegis 1 / AE100, and even it's forerunner the Kef Coda 8, all of which (I think) are vastly superior designs.

So given the choice the Kefs would get the boot first if it were me. The Nad can do better. Better still, do the two together. If you change speakers, make sure the new ones work well with the NADs likely replacement.

Cheers

[My name is Ron]

Batfink,

For what's it's worth…

I have a pair of Monitor Audio Bronze B2s and they really do the job for me – detailed, expressive and impactful, plus the front-firing port is an important feature. I intially had them powered by a NAD C320bee, and while this was impressive to begin with, the more I listened the more I became disaffected. The NAD seemed very one-dimensional, giving a quick and bright performance but little else – Timpy's fast-car analogy seems to apply in this case as well.

A solid-core cable – Audioquest Type 4 – helped a little, but in the end I just couldn't live the sound. I took the amp back to dealer and exchanged it for a Denon PMA-355UK. The difference was remarkable. Suddenly I had music, with real bass and a genuine sense of cohesion.

My impression is that the MAs need a bit of warm, controlled power if they're to really shine.

Hope this helps – it's batting lower down the order, I know, but you never know…

By the way, the MAs replaced a pair of KEF Cresta 1s. Again, the difference was clear cut.

[Steven Toy]

Tone - can u bring that Densen over??

A Densen B300?

To be use in conjunction with precisely what as a pramp?

I shudder to think! :mrtoy:

[batfink]

Originally posted by timpy

However, IME the Cresta 2s are speakers that have caused me a great deal of trouble in the past with system matching, room interaction etc. They can be good (not usually very good unfortunately) but life is too short, and usually they seem to exhibit all the same qualities of the NAD at the lower end. I classify them as the all too common situation these days with a makers budget range, i.e. need a cheap range to speakers to compete with the likes of Mission who are cleaning up at the budget end, so build a small cheap speaker and bung an enormous port on it for grunt becasue the punters are going to want bass. To my mind this seems how the Cresta 2 was formed, and it is all the more disappointing considering the competition, B&W DM302, Tannoy MX2 etc, Acoustic Energy Aegis 1 / AE100, and even it's forerunner the Kef Coda 8, all of which (I think) are vastly superior designs.


Well said that man! I've moved around a fair bit over the last couple of years and the sound of the Cresta's has varied massively as my rooms have changed. Bass was always the problem.

The Isobariks will never be considered - talk about overkill.

I want to get the best out of my system now and I think replacing the speakers is the way forward. I never expected the KEFs to be perfect and partner more expensive gear, they were just a bargain I got until I could afford some better ones. I'm certain the KEFs aren't getting the best out of my NAD and Arcam combi. I know the NAD isn't perfect and has a few shortcomings, but it's good for the money IMHO and could perform far better with better speakers than the KEFs.

[davidcotton]

Have you tried Dynaudios? They always seem to be well recieved by forum members. You could probably stretch to a pair of audience 42's which are around £400 or so if you kept the atacamas and upgraded them later.

[batfink]

Originally posted by davidcotton
Have you tried Dynaudios? They always seem to be well recieved by forum members. You could probably stretch to a pair of audience 42's which are around £400 or so if you kept the atacamas and upgraded them later.

I gave them a go. They had a nice, punchy bass, but didn't feel they were as "bright" as I am looking for to partner my fairly laid-back kit.

[technobear]

In a week or so I will have a pair of Mission 773e's up for grabs when my new Castle Conway 3s arrive. They would be a good match for the Arcam/NAD combo. Even better if you changed the NAD amp for an Arcam :cool:

Chris